You Don't Have a Marketing Problem.

Most businesses think they have a marketing problem. They don't. They have a brand problem, and the reason nobody's fixed it is because nobody's explained what brand actually is. In this episode, I map the shift that's been happening in the market, break down what brand is actually made of (hint: it's not the logo), and explain why the layer most founders are working at isn't the layer the problem lives on.

If this landed for you – I've put it all into a free guide called The Market Shift. It breaks down the 3 layers properly, shows you which one your problem lives in, and gives you a real diagnosis. Not a framework to file away. An answer.

Link's here >>> The Market Shift. Go get it.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

You're listening to Brandon But straight talking, occasionally in your face, no BS, branding podcast, modern marketers, and business owners. On your list, our lab is sometimes funny, sometimes vulnerable, and often unapologetically blunt, founder, and creative director of brand and design agency. You'll want to know link.

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SPEAKER_01 0:43

You know when you have, I just like jump straight into that. But you know when you have these like mind-blown moments where you're like, oh my gosh, this is it? I had one of those this week. And I had one of those in one of my business circles that I'm in. And the conversation I wanted to ask was, if you're struggling in your brand right now, what are the things that you really want to know? And they couldn't really answer my question. And I realized when they answered me that I don't think that they realized the depth of brand. And now this is no fault of them. Those people gave me the biggest idea or ideas that I have had in the last two years of stitching together the knowledge gap. And what I would say to everyone is that if you're in an area or your area of expertise, your category, whatever it is that you do, you're genuinely gonna know more than, you know, anyone else that's coming to you for help, whether that be for product, whether that be for service. And what you want to try and do is explain the process to them in a way that makes them confident enough to want to buy from you, right? In most cases. So brand actually has a really strong reasoning for that. And the differences are with our communication that we put out, we can sometimes get lost in what we're saying. And I found that I was probably going five levels too deep. And I needed to really go back to explaining what a brand was. I felt most people knew that a brand was more than a logo, and I think most people do, but I don't think that they know what it is beyond a logo. So today's episode is about having that conversation of do you really know what it is? And explaining the things that I have got coming up that will help you to nail this. So essentially, in a nutshell, most people think that they have a marketing problem when in actual fact they have a brand problem. And this is put simply of you look at the foundation of brand strategy, and most people think it's just about how you look or how you sound. Brand is literally the memory people have about you. It is everything. And when we're looking at it, let me get up my little diagram that I made earlier today and explain this to you visually, because I think that that's the best way to do it. So I was having this conversation with my circle. And as we were talking, I realized that they were saying, like, oh, you know, we uh this, this, this, and this, and some really valid points of what they wanted. But I realized that they actually didn't, um, when we were talking about, I guess, the importance of what a brand was, what they were asking for, they couldn't really tell me. And I think it's because they didn't know what what brand was, and that's not their fault. You know, they they they specialize in whatever it is that they do. It's my job as someone in brand to be able to explain that. There is a massive thunderstorm. I don't know if you can hear that. So if you hear some random rumbles, that's what's going on right now. Usually it can cut it out. So if you hurt nothing, carry on. So what I did was this diagram. I've made a whole download that you can get. I will add the link at the end of this, but I am so proud of it. I'm like, this is it. This is what's been missing. And so I'll start by saying that everyone that went around there and that we kind of discuss our problem, what's going on, everyone around the room had a brand problem and they didn't realize. And I was like, how can, you know, and this wasn't then. It was like, how can they not know that all of these things are brand related? And I was like, ah, because no one's telling them. No one's giving them the depth of what they actually need to know. And so to prime, like to give you a bit of background about me, I'm studying psych science. I've studied behavioral science, you know, elements of behavioral science, and I'm I'm right into consumer psych. So when I say that I can understand things about eight levels deeper than most people, it's because I'm not only learning it, but I'm also just, it's just lived experience of being in that space. So it's really hard sometimes to be able to articulate what it is that you're talking about when you're so used to thinking down here and you forget that people just don't know that. You know, they're not as hyper-focused on that subject as you are. So you're just talking about all these things that become natural to you, as you would in your own industry, that you miss that gap. That's what the knowledge gap is. You know all this really deep stuff. You sometimes forget that it's the basics that you need to revert back to. So that's what I want to talk about today is these giving you an explanation in a deeper form from a behavior standpoint of what brand is for me and how I explain it. And so I want to explain that something has shifted in the market and it hasn't been recent, it's been ongoing. So people think that it's like temporary, but it's not. It's it's a big shift that we've seen happen. We've seen adoption of tech, we've seen the way that people spend, we've seen culture really move quickly in terms and quickly in terms of it's always moved, but it's moving faster based on the information that we're receiving and how people are responding to that information. And it's um it's it's when you don't know the pop culture conversation that's happening, or even societal, geopolitical, all of these things that are happening, you can actually miss the boat or continue to talk in a way that you've always spoken to because it's the easiest way in what it worked for you before. I'm watching people do this right now, plenty of people launching, lots of people putting offers out, plenty of people doing services, and I'm just looking, going, this is not gonna work for you right now. It's not my place to tell them this, but it does really hurt my heart. However, and it's not because I I want to preface that it's not because they don't know what they're doing. It's really hard to see beyond your own bias, like extremely hard to see beyond it. It's like when you walk down the same way to a destination, so say you go to the shops and you walk to the shops all the time. You will walk that same way. And it's only when you decide that you want to go a different way that you see different things. And until you forcibly put yourself on a different route, you are going to keep seeing the same shit that you see day in, day out. And therefore, you become programmed to see what you want to see. And I know that that sounds so weird, but that is just generally how our brains work. It keeps us safe. Anything outside of that is strange, it's new, it's like alert threat, blah. Um, so yeah, it's not because they're not smart and it's not because they don't know what they're doing, but it is because nobody's mapped the new direction clear enough for people to be able to understand where they need to be going with it. I've been trying to do this for the past three years because I know our brand is solid. I know this because we've had a massive pickup in who wants to work with us, but it also is about market adoption and where we're going and the market viability of what they need. So for me, it's um been about explaining to people about what it means and getting them to kind of jump on before we go through a massive shift. Now, I want to before I dive into this, I do want to actually preface because I know a lot of people put this narrative out. I remember last time during COVID, I saw this narrative where they spoke about um people are still spending money. They are. Of course they are. Of course everyone's still spending money. Um, we can't go around if the world's not spending money. The difference is with brand is being the one that they spend their money with. And when we go through hard times, which a lot of people are going through at the moment, we did a poll on Instagram not long ago. We asked what people were worried about and with the state of the world, how concerned they were, it was like, not at all, I'm fine, you know, covering my eyes. But the one that everyone ticked was deeply concerned. Over, you know, 90% of people that answered that said deeply concerned. And that makes me wonder how many people are addressing that in their content. Because when people are buying from you, validation is so important. Communication should be at the very base of what it is that you do, how you respond, how you speak, communication. The content you put out, communication, the way you answer someone in an email, communication. All of it is communication. That's why it's called marketing communications or marcoms, if you've ever seen that, is what it is. And brand narrative, brand voice, brand messaging, it's communication. And the visual aspect of that is visual communication. All of it comes down to communication. So what I do want to say is that like if it doesn't concern you, that's fine. And you don't want to talk about it or whatever's going on and you want to be a safe space, that's totally fine as well, right? But it does come down to how your audience is feeling. And if you're neglecting a subject that they want to, I guess, address, that's up to you to kind of sense check your own market and your own audience on what it is that they kind of want to talk about right now. I know our audience and what we want to do and who we're trying to attract very much so want to have this conversation. And that's why I'm bringing the conversation to the table. But yes, people will spend money, they will continue to spend money, but it comes down to the behaviors of those people as well. Why are they spending money? For instance, I'm going to go to, I remember last COVID came around and I someone online that had a pretty big following was like, if you're complaining that people aren't spending money, that's a lie because people bought Taylor Swift tickets. And I was like, that is such a tone-deaf response. Because all that does is completely alienate or uh move away from the very reason people are buying in the first place. That is understanding buying behaviors. For instance, I would say to you, Would you ever spend$500 on a bottle of water? You may say to me, absolutely no chance in hell. I can then turn around and say to you, but what if I had a gun to your child's head? You would go, absolutely take my money. The the conversation and the behavior shift depending on the circumstances that you're in. So if all of a sudden you were doing X, Y, Z over here and then the market shifts, what for whatever reason, suddenly what you want to spend your money on may change and it will impact how you spend your money. This is what people need to understand. It is not a fixed thing. So if you want to go to a concert and you have no money and you know the outlook looks pretty bleak for you, maybe spending that money means that you buy yourself an element of, you know, taking yourself out of reality for a set concert that you know is going to bring you happiness for a short amount of time with people you probably really love, around people that believe that love the same, I don't know, museo as you. This is what people need to understand. It's not about people not spending money. It's not about being pessimistic, but it is about being realistic. So now we're looking at, and then people, regardless of what you say, petrol prices are going up and people are feeling it alongside, this is where we multi-stack, alongside mortgage rate increases, right? So now not only do they have to pay more money at the pump, they have to pay more money on their mortgage as well. So now we're seeing two lots of expenses stack up, which means that's for most people, they probably then cut their spend in certain places. And when the spend gets cut in certain places, they become very specific about where and what they spend their money on. Now that doesn't mean that they're not going to spend it on the things that, you know, for business, but it will mean that they become very specific on what they're looking at, looking for when they're trying to buy said thing. So that is where brands need to be so clear on who they are and what they do and what they stand for. Because is that if there's too much ambiguity, you just won't get chosen. And if you can't prove why you're worth X amount of dollars or, you know, prove that for just to say that for a reason, the quality of your product is worth it, then people won't see it. Essentially, you need to come at your own or your own brand cold and see what someone that doesn't know anything about you would think. This is why having, I guess, uh feedback and uh reviews matter, because if you're not getting that feedback and that review, you are not gonna get that right information. You're just going to get feedback from people that already know you or are judging you from an already biased position. That went right deep into behavior, but I think it's really important for people to understand the depths of behavior and how it impacts our decisions so much. There is literally a whole subject on behavioral economics, which is basically why we choose to spend based on our behaviors. So our emotions drive our behavior. So coming back to it because that was a really long-winded way of even starting the podcast. But I feel like that's important and to have that front of mind as we move into the next stage, right? So what we need to look at is uh this, I guess, the shift that no one's really talking about. So the rules have changed. We're not doing the same things that we were even bloody a year ago. Like things had moved so much. There is now some, you know, a war going on in the Middle East that wasn't happening. We're seeing prices rise left, right, and center. I've spoken about this before with the red hat and the symbolistic approach on how what that means now and what it didn't mean 10 years ago. So things are moving and things are changing, and you need to kind of stay a stay ahead, uh, which can be which can feel really overwhelming. So, what I will say, right, is when we're looking at something shifting in the market, um, it it's a matter of like feeling like everything around you is moving and you're feeling really behind. But what I want to try and bring down is that, you know, the map that I will give you today should see you be able to maintain that change by having such a solid foundation. And that comes from your brand strategy. So let's talk about the rules that um it is absolutely bucketing down. So if you hear that, like it's crazy. Um, what I want to talk about is how the rules have changed, but no one has sent the memo out. So no one's told anyone about it. So audiences are different, the way we pay attention is different, the way they decide is different, what earns trust is different. All of these things are so important to understand. We are not consuming content the same way. People are now getting digital, what is it called? Digital dementia is another word that's been coming out as have come out recently about people that are forgetting things because they're online too much, but we're also getting digital overwhelm. People are over being online. So if you suddenly had a really big Instagram following and people have moved offline, what do you do now? Because you've built your whole career off that, which is a time-based platform. And what have you built in the background of that going on? That's where community comes in, that's where brand recognition comes in, and this is all of the things that I want to talk about today. So it's not that the buyers it's have got harder to reach, but it is that they have changed the way that they consume or they change the way that they do things. And we as marketers or as business owners need to be very aware of what's happening in the market. So the old reasons to choose someone ha have simply, well, I guess they've stopped working. So, you know, the features and the price and the being first, like all of those things are kind of secondary. But we also need to understand attributes, right? So when to give you a full, here we go, let's go down a marketing alley. To be considered, you need to be part of the consideration set. Now, the consideration set is individualized. So someone may have seen your stuff. This is where brand comes in, but they need to be able to have you front and center visibility 101 in their mind before you're even thought about in a process of selection. Once you're then selected, good work, you've done some great work in terms of visibility, you need to then look at the secondary aspects, which are attributes. So that's when people will go, wow, these three brands are amazing and all of them have the same specs. How are they different? That's when they start going down and at what I would consider to be an attribute attributes list. What do they cost? Where are they located? What are people saying about them? Uh, what are my inclusions? All of these things come down to, you know, little minute parts. And if you haven't proved yourself good enough in the overarching brand part, then those attribute aspects are going to be the thing that they choose from. And that's just not what you want. You want to be chosen because you are a standalone. And that's what's going to be the brand equity for you when people go through those hard times or, you know, the and that economy is always going to ebb and flow. Like, so just saying that it's like a short-term thing is is ridiculous because eventually, you know, we went through we're paralleling the GFC right now, very much so looking like we're paralleling COVID. And so you need to look at how people responded during those times. Those that had great visibility, great brand recognition were the ones that got the work because people simply knew about them to put them in the consideration set. So what's happening and why it's happening, I think is really important is that um, you know, a lot of people are a lot of businesses respond essentially to those things by posting more or running more ads or tweaking their messaging or, you know, getting someone to fix their socials or changing the way they do their socials. And that's just simply um it's it's not a marketing problem, right? So you're essentially just doing the same things in a different way. It's not, it's not gonna prevent it, you know? And it's a brand problem. So until you dive into the brand problem, which is deeply, you know, personal in some cases for a lot of founders, it can be very confronting. I've had people cry. Uh, I don't think people are ready to understand. This is an identity shift. So it's happening because uh brands have been the brand itself has been sold wrong. What brand means has been sold wrong. And I guess it got collapsed into logo and the real problems went completely unrecognized. So that's what I want to bring to attention is that brand usually gets sold as a logo colors fonts. This is why people weren't listening to a lot of the things I was saying over the past few years, because I was talking to brand strategy and people didn't realize they needed one. And they wanted me to show the visual work. So whenever I put visual stuff up, people like gravitate. So you're like, great, um, how annoying. I've got to keep showing all this visual work, but a lot of the work comes before that even happens. So to give you an idea, it took me forever to build out this lead magnet that I was creating today because it had a lot of guts to it. It took the design like 10 minutes at the end, which was adding all the pretty stuff. But the design works now because the foundation has been built. This is what I do with all of my clients is do that heavy lifting thinking first because the design is literally the easiest part when it comes down to it. A lot of designers out there going, no, now don't think the design is easy. I've had 20 years' experience in the design cape. So, you know, of course it's easy for me when I've been designing for 20 years. So there's that. So when we look at the problems that nobody sees, you can't fix a positioning problem with a new caption or a new way of designing a bloody reel on, I don't know, Instagram. So it can help you bring visibility, but if people then go to the website and the same shit's there, they're not going to be receiving the information that they need to. So, you know, at the end of the day, you can spend a lot of money trying, but it's still not going to get the result that you need. And this problem, people are trying to spend money and workshops and frameworks and downloads and getting all this information when really it comes down to a big identity work session. Um, really looking at the basics and the foundations. And the issue is people don't know what's involved in that foundation. So let's talk about what people think brand is versus what it actually is. Let's let's try a bit of a reframe. So brand is psychology. It's not design, it's psychology because you're talking about persuading people or inviting people or building community around your brand. And if you're going, ah, I'm not persuasive, what do you think selling is? You're trying to get people to buy your stuff. That's persuasion, right? There's ethical persuasion, by the way. So it just because you're doing it doesn't mean that it's unethical. So, you know, FOMO messages are quick, last chance, ends tomorrow. That's that's persuasion. That's persuasive tactics. So understanding what all of these things are is really important to understand. And people are like, ah, I didn't know that. So let's talk about what people think a brand is, right? So what people think is the brand is the visual identity. Remember, it's not. Like that is like I just said, and I explained this to my circle who thought that this was a nice one. Uh, it's like someone saying to you, we're going to a party, get dressed. That's all they give you. You don't know what you're wearing because you don't know who's going to be at the party. You don't know what kind of conversations you're gonna have, you don't know who you're going to be around, so you don't know how you need to speak. All of these, you don't know where the location is. Do you bring a jacket? Do you not bring a jacket? You've just worn an an evening gown, right? Or a tux. And you rock up and it's a backyard barbecue. So all of a sudden, you're in a group of people that are in jeans and thongs and t shirts, and you're in an evening gown or a tuxedo thinking you're going to an elaborate event. All of a sudden, your visual identity doesn't communicate what it needs to. To the room that it's in. This is 100% what's happening everywhere, and the only way I can explain it. So what we then need to look at is that the brand is actually, put it like this: the brand is actually the complete architecture of perception, trust, and meaning that lives in someone's head. So you can have two different people that know your brand and they could think two very different things about it based on the experience that they've had with that brand. Brand experience is key. And brand experience is usually buckled down to communication. And I cannot stress this enough. When everyone is outsourcing to AI and they're not doing their own thinking and they're just letting it build their stuff, you are actually doing a huge disservice to the human connection. Now that doesn't say not to use AI. I use AI all the time in terms of planning. However, I'm spending just as much time correcting what it's saying to get the right thing out. Could have done it myself. But as an ADHD, I need it to kind of be like, oh, focus on the message. You can tell right now I'm already going off my output. Or my outline, I should say. So now what we need to do, right? Is the logo itself is the output of the brand. It is not the brand. So it's like my name. It's like calling me Tara and saying that that is the brand. That is just how you identify me. That is just how you know that that is me. You call my name out, I will answer. But that is that's all you will get from me. My personality is me. How I you choose me to be the person you speak to over someone else, or you know, friends. We do it with our friends. We know the funny one and the serious one and the one that gives good advice, the one you know you can party with. Like we do this without even realizing. This is why brand strategy is so important, because we're assimilating human, human attributes to the brand that we otherwise would just do in general life. So the better that you do that, the better your brand is. Anyway, so brand is what people believe about you when you are not in the room. Like, what are they saying? It's all good to think that you that that this is what they are you asking. And when someone's giving you feedback, are you taking that on? And of course there are gonna be people that stick out and they, you know, you're gonna have the 20% that love you and the 20% that hate you, but there is a big chunk in the middle there that can be swayed aside. That's who you're trying to appeal to, really. Uh, and I think that if the people in the like, you know, if you're starting to lose people from the 20%, that's where there's an issue. Uh, I know that we went through a stage where we went through a bit of an evolution. So we had to lose some old people in order to gain some new people. But also we have to get some feedback from some people that we loved about what was happening with us. And we had to fix that quick smart. When that comes, when it comes down to that, you have to be willing to take advice and feedback that makes you feel like shit sometimes. And in order to change is how you respond to that. If you just bury your head in the sand and be like, nah, it was their fault, you're not gonna change. We are the business that we are today because people were honest enough to tell us that way. And we were confident enough to not leave by our ego and our emotion and to do some shit about it. And, you know, that's just that's just uh it at the end of the day. Who's willing to do the work? That's that's essentially what it is. Um, but when it comes down to the underground, is what I'm calling the workshop, by the way, because it's under the s get it? It's like a whole iceberg analogy, metaphor, whatever you call it. But marketing can be switched on and off, just like that. Brand can't. So we still know Blockbuster. Blockbuster aren't even in business anymore, but we know them based on past memory because that is brand recognition. We know Blockbuster because of what we remember about them. So, regardless of what you do, brand still exists without marketing. However, marketing is really important because in order to maintain visibility, you need to distribute that messaging so people know who you are. So, brand alone doesn't work without marketing, marketing alone doesn't work without brand. The two are literally on the same level. And I think a lot of people will say to you that brand is a subset of marketing. It's not. It's actually not. Um, and it may have been in the in the olden days when people still thought it was a logo color font. But the more we know about it, the more we realize. There was a whole study done called the Pepsi Paradox at Bailey University, I believe, in Texas, where they did a blind taste testing for Pepsi and Coke. When people were blindfolded and they did not know what was in the cups, people overwhelmingly chose Pepsi for the flavor. When they realized and they had the branding on the cups, people overwhelmingly chose Coke. Their brain had actually rewired the way that they thought about the drink because of all of the marketing and all of the messagings and uh messagings, messaging and associations that you have about the Coke brand overpowered the physical taste of Pepsi. Wild. Like it's it's a whole, I've done this on this many times before. But this is a perfect example of good, strong brand, and they spend millions and millions and millions of dollars a year on brand and marketing. So even the biggest brands know the importance of marketing. This isn't saying that brand is more important than marketing because you need them, you like that if you turn the tap off of brand of um marketing, like you just won't work, like you can still function as a brand, but it will be really hard to keep up, like work if people don't know you exist. And this is why people have problems with inconsistency online. It's not that what and then they go, I need to change something, or I need to do my offer, or I need to change my messaging. And most of the time it's because they're actually just not marketing efficiently or consistently. And so if you're not there for people to see you, they're not gonna know you exist. So you fix so that can be where you fix a brand problem that actually isn't a brand problem, it's a marketing problem. So it's not always a brand problem, but most of the time, it's a brand problem because people are marketing. So you can run a business without brand, as I said, but it just plateaus, but it competes on price, right? It worked twice as hard for half of the result every single time. So there's that. Now, why I'm mapping this. I think it's really important to know that when you have been in this space for such a long time, like I have 19 years. Also, I as an ADHD, I recognize patterns really well. Someone said this to me went on a retreat that I went to last week. They're like, you know patterns, don't you? I'm like, so badly, like I cannot, I feel like I'm a psychic sometimes. But it's just that you're able to kind of pick up these weird spidey senses about things. The good businesses and good founders are genuinely doing good work, right? It's not that they're not, that they're still invisible and still losing clients to someone maybe with half of I've noticed this for so many people, like, why am I not? Because distribution and how you promote yourself is not the same as who you are in terms of value and self-worth. The two are not the same. Not even the same. That's why you get in a room and you have this person that may have a really great marketing plan and visibility against the person that's got the 20 years experience. And that person with 20 years experience will absolutely own that person that's had like seven years. That's not to say that that person with seven years doesn't have good advice. However, they might have great marketing advice, but in terms of the game and understanding the game, the person with 20 years is always gonna have more experience than the one with seven. I can just see the people in the comments going, no. But sorry, it kind of is true. I mean, if they're good at their job anyway. But what we want to do is know that um the pattern is always the same, right? So this is what I mean, like by people treating surface symptoms while the actual problem is a layer up, you know, or under, I should say, untouched. It's the same thing with everything, right? You know, you could be talking to someone that, you know, trigger warning, let's talk weight, is trying to lose weight. And people are going, it's just that you're not doing this, or you're not, um, and I say this because it was just something that came up in my feed before, um, about studies on women. I thought was really cool. Um, it was about women runners. And um, this woman said that she was a bigger build and she was really fit, really healthy. Um, but people have always kept telling us she's unhealthy because she was overweight. Um, but there was a whole thing to that. And so what we were talking about is people like, you're not trying hard enough, or you're not eating right, or you're not doing this, but people are failing to realize that there is such an a layer understanding what are the complexities of a person. So you have to factor in of us saying last week about the bio-psychosocial model, uh, is when we talk about all of the biology and uh psychology and social aspects that are actually contributing to that person's decision. So it's who they are as a person, their stress response, like how were they brought up? Were they was their trauma involved? That is huge in terms of how people make decisions. Like, hello. Um, did they live in scarcity? They may be really scarce with the way they spend their money. Whole lot, like you have to understand buying behavior. We look at psychology. Who are they hanging around? What are they thinking? And all of these things factor into essentially, you know, how they how they live in the world and how they choose the way that they do. And then someone's like, you're just not doing this without failing to realize the eight layers that are underneath that person and their choice. What is their environment like at home? Like, how what's the holistic approach here? Like, let's be real, like about this, because this is what's changing. Like, people are becoming more aware, and therefore they're just not taking that bullshit as surface value anymore. They're that they know that there's more to it. So the businesses that are surviving the marketing shifts are the ones with brand equity. And they have brand equity because everyone else uh needs to be figuring out what they're doing next, whereas they already know. So let me talk about the parts that I think are really important that I should have gotten to probably half an hour ago. But really, it's like what a brand actually is. So I want to talk about visualize the center of this as being a core with things coming off the middle of it, right? So the middle of it is the brand and the core. Off that, we have identity framework. So who you are and what you stand for. Then we have positioning, how how you are different from everyone else. Then we have your reputation, so what people say when you're not there. Then we have your audience alignment. So everyone's like, I know my paying points. Do you though? Because if we talk about that model I just said, do you actually know the depths here? We talk about who your what their worldview matches yours. Emotional contract, your promise, your keep. Narrative architecture, the story people tell you or tell about you, I should say. Recognition, how fast people identify you, and your internal compass. So what guides the decisions? So you can see none of that mentioned a logo. That's just one subset of the part of the identity structure. So over the next couple of weeks, these are the things that I'm actually going to be diving into because it's really important that we understand what we're trying to diagnose before we start to market. Because the moment that you miss these crucial areas is the moment that you realize that you've been spending time and energy and money on the wrong bloody area and you could have had a hit with the other side. It's simply about identifying the problem. Till then, I hope you enjoyed this episode. We're going to be getting a bit deep and gritty with it. Um, and I will chat to you all next week.

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