Brand and Butter

Rethinking brand through neurodiversity and design psychology

• Tara Ladd • Episode 83

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In this episode, I'm discussing the challenges and opportunities faced by neurodivergent founders in the business world. I tap into how societal structures often do not accommodate neurodivergent thinking and how this can impact business operations. I also highlight the importance of using AI to systemise processes, the significance of brand strategy and visual identity, and the necessity of building relationships and community for success. She shares her personal experiences and insights on navigating these challenges while advocating for systemic change in the business landscape.


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SPEAKER_00:

You're listening to Brandon Butter, straight talking, occasionally in your face, an OBS branding podcast for modern marketers and business owners. And for those who want to understand the influence and power of branding and have caring associations, consumer behavior, and design thinking can impact what people say, think and feel. I'm your host, our line, is sometimes funny, sometimes vulnerable, and often unapologetically blunt, founder and creative director of brand and design agency, your one and only. Hey, hey, welcome to this week's episode of Brand and Butter. It's a bit of a personal one this week. I think what I'm watching and I guess navigating from a wider societal point is what it feels like as a neurodivergent founder running a business in a world that has been systematically built around you. And so what I mean by that is how we have to think and act in a world that has built a system that goes against the way that our brains work and the way that we thrive, essentially. So today I am actually going to be diving into the evolution of brand and how it can work to your favor, not necessarily brand, but I guess society and how it's moving towards a favorability for neurodivergent people. Probably Audi HD if we're talking about it, but definitely prominently ADHD. What I've found over the last few years is how much differently, is that right? Is that phrased correctly? My brain works to solve a problem. And you will find that pattern repeated with any other neurodivergent business owner. And it's essentially because they don't think with inside the box. Now, this doesn't say that neurotypicals don't have creative ideas. It's not it at all. And I think that that's kind of what a lot of people are assuming. It's just that the common thing that people always say to me is, I love the way that your brain works. And I'm just like, well, it's just it's random. You will have a conversation with me. We will detour, go down this track, completely be sidetracked with a different topic, and then circle back to the original. And I remember sitting in a class when I was in year six watching this progression happen. We started talking, I don't know why I remember this. I never remember anything. My ability to for long-term memory is insane, but my short-term memory sucks. ADHD, working memory. But I remember sitting in this class, I just did it then. I remember sitting in this class and they were talking about the government, Australian government. We were talking about studying, it was a year six project, we all had to go and do a assignment on one of the prime ministers of Australia. I had hold anyway. The circumstances ended up talking about oranges. I just remember thinking, how the hell did we start talking about Australian government, the Australian government and prime ministers, and end up over on oranges? And it was just this really weird progression. I don't know why I remember that. It's so weird. It wasn't like anything outlandish. Anyway, so when it comes to business, and especially now, and this is why I think there are a lot more people being diagnosed as neurodivergent. And full preference, if you're wondering why I'm talking about this, it's not only lived experience. I've I was diagnosed when I was 11, I'm now 39. But I also have studied behavioral science. So neuroscience, uh, understanding the brain consumer psych. What was the other one I did? Can't remember. Oh, behavioral economics. So I understand the intricate details of what's happening in the brain, and I also hyper focus on people. It's just that's my hype that's my you know special interest is people behaviour. And one of my one of my assignments for behavioral neuroscience was to do the final essay on the ramifications of using methylphenidate, which is Ritalin, for those that don't have ADHD. You know, short stories that it doesn't work on you like utter all my in the state. You know how they make it. It's like, oh, you have ADHD meds when you don't have ADHD and you open up all these up. It doesn't work like that. Sorry. It uh basically doesn't work on you, it makes you think faster, and that's not always great, and it keeps you up a little bit longer. And no, it's not meth, so it's a different know the difference between amphetamines and methamphetamines. Anyway, moving on. It made me really want to study uh pharmacop pharmacology. I loved learning all about the medicine and the way that the brain works. Anyway, so I know what it does to your brain. So if you want a little bit of a science lesson, I'm gonna go into it for the next couple of minutes. In your brain, you have neurotransmitters. Those neurotransmitters are dopamine, you've got heaps, but the ones that essentially affect those with ADHD are neuro uh sorry, uh dopamine and neurepinephrine. And neurepinephrine is like your brain's adrenaline, so it makes it spark and fire, and that is synthesized from dopamine. Right, you still with me here? So essentially you will heard you would have heard it before is that ADHD people lack dopamine and they have to try and find it. You know, that's why they do risk-taking behavior, it's why they, you know, it's why they they seem lazy, but they're not, it's because they're mentally their brain's not firing, because they're not producing enough dopamine, therefore they're not making any norepinephrine, which then obviously fires your brain to work. So if you're wondering as an ADHD why you sit down and wonder why you just cannot do the thing, that would be norepinephrine. Anyway, coming back to it. So when it comes to technology evolvement, I think it's really interesting to note the evolvement of AI and how those with ADHD or any kind of neurodiversity, for instance, dyslexia, all of that type of stuff. There's a big umbrella for those that are playing at home, is that we're we essentially use it to build a system. So I'm not using AI for my ideas. I've been using AI to formulate my ideas or to make sense of my brain. And by doing that, I will dump all of the information. And for full preference, I am a verbal processor, obviously. I find my podcast so much easier to create than I do any written content any day of the week. I could talk, talk, talk, talk, talk for ages. You say, Hey, Tara, here's what I want you to talk about. I will be like, great, let's go. And I find that incredibly easy to do that. What I find hard is being able to siphon that information down into written copy, that is a certain limit, and get my point across effectively. And this is why I've had a really big problem with being able to articulate my personal brand with my business brand, because there is too many things about me personally that I want to talk about that don't necessarily align with the business brand. And so I've found AI really great for essentially pruning the topics of discussion down to focus on the things that I should be focusing on. Neurodiversity is a huge element of that. I live with it. I have for since I was 11. I mean, everyone that has it has, they may just not have been aware of it, but it has been part of, it has been part of my family since I was a kid. Me, my brother, and my sister, definitely my mum, we've just pegged my dad as well. But we were all diagnosed as kids. I was medicated between 14 and 16, and then I went off it, and then I was like, I'm good. No, I did other things, smoked a few bit of weed every now and then, and you know, all of these like behaviors that I didn't realize replaced what I was doing prior. Anyway, everything went to shit after I had two kids, and that was evident. So I was masking my ability to be a perfectionist, and it was once I kind of realized that I'd built this fabricated life, and uh when I had to really come to terms with it, it was it was hard to manage because the things that worked before weren't working. And this is where I found a real divide between those that think the same way and those that don't, is that people that don't think the same way as someone with that's neurodivergent is that they just can't get where you can't do something. And it feels really patronizing and it's really insulting when you know full well that your brain can do probably double what a lot of other people can. You just can't execute it the same way. And so a lot of people have issues with execution and they rework strategies over and over and over and over and over and over and they can't execute. I mean, it's pretty common in most cases for people to do that, but I find that a lot of the business rhetoric is around you just have to do it, or you know, write it down, or you you just have to work harder. And I find that that mentality for me burnt me to the ground where I was working harder and harder and harder, and what I actually needed was a system, and the system has been created using AI. And so what I actually did was document my process through video and managed to kind of pull out all of these systems and processes from the way that I was conducting, something that I just naturally did. So I systemized everything, which I mean, anyone that has a business knows that systems and processes are literally a huge element of your success. But it was like file management that I'd always had because my old agency was really good with it. So we kind of replicated the same file management, which has always been super clear. However, all of these other things that I've had to develop since running a business have been created, and then all of a sudden, it's too hard for to then document what you've been doing down. So I've actually been working with um my mate Lizzie, who is in SystemOps, and she's completely like fixed up a whole bunch of different things for me, but in the same time, I've been using AI to develop these systems. And once I did this, it became so much easier. Like, so we Stace, who is working with me in a way, and we've worked together for years. So she used to work with me at my old agency back in the day. I trained her as a junior, she's now a senior, she does her own thing, she's amazing. I just give her a brief and she can nail it, and we will always have that relationship. Her and I have just always known how to work together, so it hasn't been an issue. And even my last employer Amy was really great with it as well. But it's like when you realize that you have to then brief someone else in, you find defaults in what's going on with your processes. So this is something that I had to come to terms with after we went through our period where I had to scale back and a lot of that pressure was then put on me, and I found that I was the bottleneck, obviously, in most cases. But unlike a lot of these people that are just like, invest in yourself, I didn't have the capacity to do that. So I had to figure it out. And this is what I this is my uh point about privilege, is that sometimes people can say things like, I just took a took a risk and I invested in myself. I mean, that's all great and well when you have, you know, the ability to do that. The money sometimes has to be there in order for you to make the investment. Like it's like people just assume you have that. And even then, I saw someone at an event recently that was like, I just borrowed this much, 60 grand from the bank, and just took a punt on myself. I'm like, people don't have access to that these days. Like, banks are hard. And I just feel that there's there's a bigger conversation at play here. So, what are the other ways that you can do it? What are the ways around trying to build something that you know is worth it, but you can't figure out how to do it? It really comes through systemizing a process. This is where I really came to terms with having to break my process into threes. So, because I've studied behavioral science, there was a big element of psychology that I was bringing to the table that I'd always known, but it was now amplified. So I was able to then bring in this nuance that higher agencies were bringing. And not only just to, I guess, the development of the brand strategy, but the execution of the visual strategy. Because there is so much psychology involved in visual execution. You talk about priming, which is you know, getting someone to see something without realizing. For instance, if you're going to buy a new car and you look at, I don't know, a VW golf. I don't know, that came to my mind, it was my old car. All of a sudden you will see that car on the road everywhere. Whenever something is top of mind, you will start to see these things. This is the importance of consistency in marketing. It's also the consistency of repeating what you do over and over and over again, even if you feel like a broken record. Then we also look at things like the F pattern, which is basically the way westernized people will, or Westernised cultures, I should say, read. You go top left to right, then back to, you know, the next line left to right, and then back down to the left again, and they call it the F pattern. And that's how people will read. So it's left-aligned copy. You will also hear people that aren't designers get on and be like, oh, he's left-aligned your copy. You know, that can also change. So, you know, I can challenge them on that. But in most cases, you read left to right. There's also things like breaking copy after eight to twelve words because it makes people need to move their head more, right? So if you're reading a piece of paper and you have to move your head all the way across, it's like it reduces scannability. So there are all these little things that are built in color in heuristics in terms of colour association. So using certain colours to symbolize meaning, being environmental, I use this all the time because it's really easy, but environmental, you would use green. People can then connect the dots between environment and green, because whenever we're talking about that, that's what it says. However, if you think of something like, and again, I would use this as an example, a dental surgery being black and yellow. And those colours do not work with that alignment. A dental surgery should be clean and fresh, and so you're using mints and pale blues and whites and greys to symbolize a white, pearly, white, pearly teeth. If you start to use black and yellow, it does the actual opposite to that. And I use this at an event that I went to where I said that out loud and I watched people's faces physically scrunch up at the at the thought of yellow and black as a dental surgery identity colours. They went, and um, and if you didn't see me, then I'll scrunch my face. And I laughed because I was like, exactly, you do these things so subconsciously that these are the things that you need to think about. And after I started to watch, these things are just living in my brain. I know this stuff so well. Like, and it's really crazy when I go out and then I start talking to people and they're like, Oh, I didn't realize that you knew all this. And I'm like, how do I even begin to explain the context of this? Because it's so deep, and I guess it's all in the semantics and the nuance of where do you start? Because that's the knowledge gap. When you know so much, it can also be a hindrance because then you feel like you need to know more when actually you need to kind of go all the way back. It's the same thing with brand, and I always talk about brand, and I felt that people were beyond a brand as a logo, but they're not. And so I have to explain, and now it's not a brand as a logo, I think they're beyond that. It's like a brand is not a visual identity, and I think people are that's the content that people are needing to know is that the first thing that people will do is they will go out and start a business and they will make a logo, or they're a business that's been in, you know, trading for years, and they know that they need to do something to modernize themselves. And the first thing that they do is they go to a designer to recreate and update their visual identity. The issue with that is that when you have changed, and this happens at every growth period of your business, you kind of need to do a bit of a mini rebrand or what I would consider to be a repositioning strategy. Because when you're scaling, it means that you're moving away from a current audience and into a newer audience, and you need to kind of shift the perception to show that, which means that language needs to change. It means that targeting needs to change. Audience, hello. It also means that the visual identity may need to change. So if you're moving from maybe a younger, more fresh market and you're moving into a more, I guess, higher-end market, or you're targeting an audience that has a bit more of a quality factor, you need to then look the part and be the brand that they expect to buy from. And if you're targeting a higher-end brand but still looking like a startup, well, not even a startup, some startups are amazing, but still looking like a beginner brand, there'll be a disconnect and they won't buy from you. It doesn't matter how cheap your prices are. And in actual fact, if you make your prices cheaper, this is another thing in terms of psychology, is that if you make your prices cheaper, you will actually it can be a disservice for you. So they will think that you're something's wrong. You know, if Apple put an iPhone out tomorrow and said that it was 200 bucks, everyone would be like, why? What's wrong with it? And so that's something that you need to consider. It's not always about price. And so the way I break it down is attributes. Again, this is my system, but putting it into words has enabled me to just keep it repeating. And that's the thing, right? When the system keeps repeating and it's routine and people know what they're going to get, that's when they'll build, that's when you'll build safety, they'll build trust with you, and that's when the relationship will, you know, start to flourish. And it really is just about that. And the issue is that there is so much inconsistency at the moment. Those that are playing a really consistent game of showing up exactly how they need to be, you can still tweak within the framework. They're the ones that are going to win. They're also understanding their audiences, so they know how they're consuming content, they know what they need to see, they're understanding the adapt adaptation of uh different platforms, they're understanding uh different execution phases on different channels. So the way that you would show up on LinkedIn is different to the way that you would show on show up on Instagram, is different to the way you would show up on TikTok. So repurposing the same content across all channels is not ideal. There's brands that have a whole different visual strategy for Instagram to TikTok, which may feel almost the same, but it's not. So Instagram have a very different vibe to TikTok. TikTok's way more authentic, way more face-to-camera, way more documentary kind of content. Documentary, I was halfway through two words. Documentary type content. And yeah, it's about understanding that and figuring out where your audience is. And I see a lot of people jumping on these trends. Spoke about this with uh Kim the other week. It's not about that. The trends are secondary, that trends are tactics, the strategy is what you need underneath it. And so the strategy is for every business. The strategy is a system. So when you say strategy, you're building a system. This is how we're going to do things. This is what we need to do here. This is how we execute. Your brand strategy should sit at the top. It's your system. That shouldn't change unless there's been some kind of drastic change. How you execute that strategy is what changes. So you have the brand strategy, who you are, what you do, what you're about, who you're here for. And then you have the way that you execute that. So you have, you know, your target markets, and then you have different channels to then execute that. So you may say, this is the message that we're trying to get out for our audience. How we then execute that will then be dictated by which platform that we're using. So here's the message, and here's how we're going to execute that on TikTok, how we're going to do it on LinkedIn, how we're going to do it in an email, how we're going to do it in podcast. And that comes down to distribution. And so a lot of the things that we're seeing at the moment is that people don't know the system of a dist of the distribution, which has been my problem, full transparency, is that I was changing my content because I thought that that's what people needed to see when the content fires when it's put in front of the right people. And so then that reframes it. It's like the content's fine. It's not about posting more. It's about where are you? Where are you placed in ways for people to be able to see your content? This is collaborative marketing. Getting yourself in front of audiences or that buy the same things as what you're selling and understanding the people that are in alignment to your brand values so that you can get the same audiences. This I see so many people just connect with people because they've got large numbers on their Instagram channel or whatever. And then the problem is that they're not getting the right audiences follow them because the collaboration was wrong. So the brand strategy essentially says this is who you are, this is what you do and what you're about, and who you're here for, all the things I said before. And then that then aligns you to who are the people that sit within that realm or align with the way that I do things in my space, but not a direct competition. Or who can I invite in that has some good knowledge in the spaces that people want to hear from from a different point of view, or someone that they follow and trust and believe in that you can bring on as an additional, you know, connection. It really is just about getting your eyes on things. And so this kind of comes into the memory and the retention and how do people remember you is that you need to tap into the emotion. And so all of these things are buckets, and that's built from the system. So as a neurodivergent, when you're talking about the magnitude of, I guess, distribution now, where we're placed, it's no longer just print and radio and TV. We've got social media, multi-social media channels. You've got emails and podcasts and all of these different ways that people consume. For instance, there are people that would prefer to listen to an audiobook over reading a blog. And there's people people that prefer to read a blog over watching a video. And there's people that prefer to watch a video versus reading a blog. Like there's so many, and that that comes down to understanding how people consume information. Understanding who your audience is and how they consume information. Different generations tend to go to different forms. Now that's not to say that they can consume over. There's an overlap, obviously. But when you dive into this nuance, then it's easy for you to execute because you know that if you're targeting a specific audience, you can be in a place where you know more of them will be. So you'll hear this all the time where someone will be like, if you're targeting boomers, you know, your best bet's not to be on TikTok. And then you'll hear someone go, Well, I'm on TikTok. It's like great, cool, but you may be in the 10%. So where's it's like more bang for your buck? Where are you gonna be? You can always trial, trial it, but it's like if you know that 70% of your audience are sitting on LinkedIn, you're not gonna invest all of your time trying to get 10% of your audience that is sitting on TikTok versus 70% of your audience that may be over on LinkedIn. It's a no-brainer. It really just is about visibility. If you're not being seen, no one's buying you stuff. And so this comes from the system. So I've been figuring out how a flow chart works. Where is the brand? Where do I want the brand to be seen? In life, in real, like in real, can't even speak. In real life events are important. Having that connection face to face is important. So it's about building that relationship as well, getting to networking groups. If you're constantly online and you're not actually getting yourself out there, people don't know who you are. They're only seeing a figment of who you are. This is why speaking events are really good because then people can see you in the flesh. They see what you can say, they hear what you're about, and that's really why a lot of those people get more, they're putting themselves in front of a room of people. This happened to me three times this year, and the influx right after that was insane. So it really is just about getting yourself in the right place. So the system for me is about not being overwhelmed because I have to do all of these things. And it allows me to say, I need to be speaking to this, this, and this, but it's not my content. It's actually where I need to be as well. So, I mean, obviously it might be your content, so I'm not gonna say it's not, but it's also good to get expert help. When you're asking AI for help, I know that a lot of people are just eliminating expert advice now and they're going straight to AI. It's completely I had a lead come to me recently where they said, we've done all of our marketing strategy, here is here it is from AI. And I was like, this is so boring. Like the issue with AI is it's going from preconceived information. So if you're trying to create a point of difference and something that's different about you, you're only ever going to repeat something that's been done if it's going by past references. Where the real magic always happens is the sidebar conversations, always in the conversations that we have in our initial strategies, are coming from people that, you know, they go off on a tangent and they start talking about something. I'm like, that's it, that's the trigger. They're like, really? I'm like, absolutely, yes. So it's about knowing the connection piece. And that comes through conversation and it comes through you not being biased, someone that's unbiased to what it is that you're going through, but also knowing that sometimes when you're doing something new, which a lot of neurodivergent people do because they think differently, there'll be no resource there. It's it's innovation, and innovation is new, so it feels wrong. And a lot of the times people have these amazing ideas and then they resort back to their old ways because it wasn't working. To give you full transparency, it was taking like eight months for us to get a lead. Like, you know, that it wasn't to get a lead, but like to for that cycle, that life cycle of from initial entry into conversion. And that's because obviously our prices are sitting higher because we're good at what we do. And so those that were basically qualifying those leads to know that we're the right people for them. And that's where their money will be invested, and they will get their bang for their buck for that. And and not only that, they get a huge amount of detail. For instance, I just sent off the initial report, which is part one, which was a 95-page research document, and that was it. There was nothing in it but just research. So it was showing competitors, it was breaking down positioning analysis, it was talking about potential opportunities and uh strengths and weaknesses. It was a full-on, this is where the market is right now, and this is the options that we have to deal with. Then once we kind of go through that phase, we move into phase two, which is our DNA phase, which is when we build in the strategy based on the information that we know. And this is the most important part is that you then build a strategy with the information that you know to create a point of difference. Because when you know where competitors are and where your accessibility point is to enter, where your, I guess, your white space is and your differentiation, is that then by the time you get to the design execution, then you've you already have an idea on where you need to be. You have a really clear example of who you're talking to, how you're going to do it, what your point of difference is, and then you add the outfit. So the design is the outfit. You then marry up the visual identity to fit the positioning and direction of the brand. So I heard someone say recently that they were updating their visual identity, but everything that the designer sent through they weren't resonating with. And I said, Because you have no strategy. You're going and saying, Hey, I want to paint my house a certain colour, and they say, What's the house look like? And you go, I haven't built it yet. Like that is just it's crazy talk to me. The visual identity is the outfit. It's like saying you're going to an event and you're picking an outfit before you know where the event is. The design of the visual identity should match what the brand strategy is trying to portray, it's perception. It's what you want people to perceive you as. And then your vi your verbal identity is the way that you talk. It's the language that you use. It's the tone that you use. It's the personality that you portray. And the personality plays a huge role in the way that you execute the visual identity. Who gives a crap is a perfect example of that. Fun out there, you know, personality-driven brand has a personality-driven visual identity. Look at Chanel or someone that's high quality, you know, high luxury market, their visual identity, the way that they speak, marries up to the way that they execute. It's all a system. And so when we talk about, I guess, neurodivergent people running businesses most, I reckon there's a high probability of them all being somewhere on the spectrum. Because they have amazing ideas, like and put themselves through that entrepreneurial vibe. And it's coming up with idea after idea after idea, and it's the environment that you create yourself because putting yourself in a workplace like that is like almost hell. So they've created their own way to do things, which is exactly why I did it. Um, also, I didn't like a lot of the stigmas and stereotypes in the workplace, and I wanted to set out to create my own. Anyway, I guess what I'm trying to say is if you're a neurodivergent, it can feel really overwhelming, especially when you're trying to follow someone's framework or advice that's worked for them previously and doesn't necessarily work for you. What I found more than ever, especially over the last few years, is to find someone that you can connect with deeply on an emotional level and obviously who's doing well or has proved their point. You don't just want to go and connect with someone and make friends. You spent you still need that lackability. And the reason for that is you will do better when you're working with someone that you trust rather than working with someone who may just be good. And a perfect example of this is by someone using a designer that may be amazing at what they do, but if they don't vibe, that whole relationship process will break because there'll be egos at play, there'll be trust won't be met. And if they don't actually agree on the things that they're trying to push out, then the problem then becomes the designer won't be able to execute to their full potential because there's a break in the in the conversation. And the client will lose trust in the designer because they're not being able to execute what they're wanting. And it really does, you you are better off to have someone that you trust and align with. They obviously still have to be good, but sometimes choosing the best because they've been known as the best isn't always the best. So it does come down to relationship, it does come down to values, it does come down to alignment. And this is the thing that I've been spewing for the past, I don't know how long. And I think now more than ever, we're seeing this real connection of lived experience start to buckle into the way that we do our businesses. And I think that's great. Because when you start to work with people that understand you, you can then feel that sense of belonging. This is the biggest thing with humans, is that we need to feel like we belong. If you're in a community group or some kind of networking group and you always feel like you're on the outer, it's going to feel harder for you. You're watching everyone win around you. Um, and sometimes that's not motivation. People will be like, you just need to try harder, use that as inspiration, but it won't, it doesn't work like that. When you're with a group of people that champion you and they they get it, you feel heard. You feel seen, heard, and like you belong. And they are the most important things, which is why I completely reshifted the business to focus on those that want to be contributing towards systemic change, systemic change. Progressive brands that want to build businesses that are moving the needle in one way or another. You know, if you're just going to create something, say I'm creating t-shirts, like, cool. What's the point? Oh, we're creating sustainable t-shirts with hand-drawn such and such. Great, great. You have purpose. Like, give me something there. Like, it's not just creating something just to contribute to the rest of it. Like, what's the difference? Why are you creating it? How is it different? How are you moving the needle? And that's really what's driving me at the moment. Those that are trying to do something that's better than it's already out there. Otherwise, we're just contributing to the same shit that's already out there. And I'm just so over it. Anyway, that was my little waffle on. I guess as a neurodivergent person, I have I've had many things said to me, trust me. I've just managed to have a backbone. I'm really thankful that I've got this really weird assertive confidence. I don't know where it came from, to be fair. But I chose humor and wit to counteract my shame when I was growing up and it just worked for me. And so that's kind of come through a lot of the things that I've done. However, the humour was lost when I went through a period where I was feeling really down, and so that funny side of me was gone. So it really is just about that um that growth and figuring out what it is that you need and putting yourself around people that understand what it is that you're trying to achieve, and listening to the way that they've built their businesses with the same type of brain and not feel down on yourself when you can't do what someone else has said that they've done. Anyway, I have big plans in this space and I'll talk about that next year. But for now, uh, that's this week. And again, if you're feeling like you're a little bit alone and you need to have a conversation about this, please feel free to slip into our DMs and we can have a yarn about it. Uh, until then, until then, talk to you next week. Did you like that episode? I hope so. Because if you did, why don't you head over to whatever platform you listen on and write and review? It's much appreciated and helps others know what we're about. If you want to follow us, you can find us at you on a only underscore AU on Instagram or head to www.ywan and only.com.au

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Tara Ladd

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