Brand and Butter
Always straight-talking (occasionally in-your-face), Brand and Butter is the no-BS branding podcast for modern marketers and business owners. Packed with clear-cut advice on the influence and power of branding - and how pairing associations, consumer behaviour, and design thinking can impact how we see, think, feel, and even taste.
Brand and Butter serves up refreshingly honest and never-dull conversations with some of today’s boldest brand strategists and architects. Sometimes funny, sometimes vulnerable (and often unapologetically blunt), this is the podcast that you wish you’d listened to before launch.
Tara Ladd is the Founder and Brand Strategist at Your One and Only, a brand and design studio here for brands who refuse to settle. Evolving brand identities to stay relevant fusing psychology, strategy, and design.
Brand and Butter
Know Your Strategies: Business vs. Brand vs. Marketing
What happens when business owners mistake brand strategy for marketing strategy? These (alongside business strategy) are often-confused with businesses. In this episode I discuss how strategy is the cornerstone of your business's identity—an evolving area that must be constantly revisited to stay relevant and impactful. I discuss why a strong brand strategy goes beyond visuals and how it shapes your entire business persona and sets the stage for all marketing efforts.
PS. Want to build a brand that goes beyond basic and lasts, even in hard times? J Laboratory is now open for entry! Grab your seat now before the doors close this Sunday 27 October 11:59pm AEDT >>> I WANT IN!
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You're listening to Brand and Butter a straight-talking occasionally in your face no BS branding podcast for modern marketers and business owners. Here for those who want to understand the influence and power of branding and how pairing, association, consumer behavior and design thinking can impact what people see, think and feel. I'm your host, tara Ladd, the sometimes funny, sometimes vulnerable and often unapologetically blunt founder and creative director of brand and design agency. Your one and only hey, hey, welcome to this week's episode of Brand and Butter. So I want to talk about something that I experienced last week. I was invited to be a mentor at South by Southwest Sydney, which was super awesome, but one of the things that I encountered when I spoke to four of the mentees that came to the event to speak with me was a very common problem that we also encounter with most of our clients and any leads that we have that come to us, regardless of business size, there is always some kind of brand strategy issue. So it encouraged me to talk about this episode today, because most people assume it's a marketing problem, when in actual fact, it's a brand problem. We see so many people come to us and ask about how they can shape their identity or what colors they need to use or what fonts they need to use, but it's so much deeper than that they need to use or what fonts they need to use, but it's so much deeper than that, and it has to go about five steps backwards. Before you even know how to create messaging, before you know what visual identity you need to create, before you even have a personality aligned, you need to understand the identity that you've shaped around your business. Now, this can be really difficult, because there are a lot of people that don't even know who their personal identity is, and so herein lies the problem. When you haven't done the in-depth work, you will get a lackluster brand identity. Therefore, when you try and market, it will be inconsistent and you will be spending money on things when the actual problem aligns aligns Lies in the brand strategy. So, put simply, what I want to do is speak to the three core areas of strategy from our perspective that we kind of work with that.
Speaker 1:A lot of businesses may be missing, and this doesn't matter if you're a small business or a large business. This happens across the board. We had a lead come in a few months ago that was speaking about a lot needing a logo, when, in actual fact, we identified that they had needed a like, a whole like system, a branded architecture system, to go back through and have a look at the pockets, because it would have been unethical I guess is the right word, wouldn't have been a good service for us to just charge them for a logo when they actually needed to go back and revisit their brand strategy, that they hadn't revisited in like 10 years. And the world has changed. So we can't look at brand strategy as oh, we've done this, now we don't need to change. We need to look at brand strategy like you would as a person. Are you the same person that you were 10 years ago? No, probably not. In fact, I'm not even the same person that I was three years ago, and that means that when there is an identity shift, there needs to be a rebrand or a repositioning that then aligns you to that new place that you're sitting in. Because if you're constantly talking to an older audience and you haven't repositioned in the right way to make that connection, there will be a disconnect, things will fall down and nothing will work the way that you want it to. So today is going to be the difference between a business strategy a brand strategy and a marketing strategy, all of which I don't think many people know. And if you do awesome, you'll track along with this quite easily. But let's put it into easy terms, right. So imagine you are opening a restaurant and you've got like the best location, a super good chef, a really good menu that people would just die over, and before you open your doors, you need a plan, like you can't just open it up and hope to God that someone comes.
Speaker 1:This is a business strategy, so it's like the big picture roadmap for your restaurant and questions like you know, what kind of restaurant will it be? Is it casual, fine dining, family friendly? This influences your brand identity. Then there's like what kind of people do you want in there? Are they students, are they families, are they foodies, you know, is it a cultural experience? This is then crucial for both brand and marketing strategies. And then there's something like what are your financial goals, profit margins, expansion plans, like, are you going to flip and sell franchise? This impacts your pricing and marketing budgets. Sorry, just choked on myself then, and they're both elements of both brand and marketing strategies. And then, lastly, it's like how do you stand out from the competition? Like unique dishes, do you have really great service? What's the vibe like? This requires a combination of brand positioning and marketing tactics. So now let's look at brand strategy, marketing tactics. So now let's look at brand strategy. This is the unique identity that you need for your restaurant that resonates with your target audience. So it's like creating a personality. It's like building off the right perception so that people know if you're a vibe for them. It's like an identity alignment.
Speaker 1:People go to certain restaurants because it is indicative of the type of person that they are. People drive certain cars, people buy certain handbags like all of these things are a status symbol, and not necessarily a status symbol, but like an identity symbol. So for me personally, I love buying t-shirts and graphics and things that are quite rare, because I don't want people to have the same things as me, because I like to consider myself, like you know, one of a kind, and so when you're understanding things like that, then like that whole scarcity, one of a kind limited edition stuff kind of works on me. So it's that limited run and not many people will have this kind of that whole, except the Birkin bag. But that's why that works right, because there's so few people in the world that can buy that bag, that when they release it, they have, like you know, a wait list out the door for it.
Speaker 1:So it's what perception are you creating and what personality are you creating for people to connect with? So then you need to ask yourselves questions like what's the story behind the restaurant? Is it a family history, history, someone that's passionate for food, commitment to sustainability or ethics, or whatever it may be? Because the story is what you use in your marketing to connect with your people. People need to see themselves in the story and they want to. You know, for instance, whenever there is a new story on the tv and they want to. You know, for instance, whenever there is a news story on the TV and something has happened, they will always pick three or four narratives to run with, because it is an emotional connection. They do this with charities as well.
Speaker 1:If you just ask someone to donate to a charity, that is actually a huge problem. There's been studies and research done on this. People think that their minute contribution is not going to be enough to solve the problem. Therefore, they just don't donate at all. But what happens is they then find someone within the. You know whatever they're donating towards, say, it's like a in this instance I think it was the Ugandan, you know, village it was finding those people that had a story so that you could then feel like when you were donating, you were donating to the people themselves and they felt that their small contribution could then help that person or that family, because it was a much smaller and narrowed down niche narrative and so. But also it's an emotional connection because you can then put a face to the name, to the money, to the you know how it's going, why it's being there, and that's really important with brand story. Right, it's that alignment of the underdog and David and Goliath and wanting to kind of contribute to the person that's kind of put in the hard work or had to fight and battle.
Speaker 1:This is important for the narrative that people want to be part of. Who Gives a Crap built that narrative off that you know sustainability and contributing to, you know sanitary across worldwide and giving back and that's a huge thing. So what's the story behind it? This is why you see, we've been in business since 18, blah, blah, blah. Then it's longevity, it's like the tradition, so it's like a traditional approach Like this is so important.
Speaker 1:And then it's what kind of feeling do you want people to have, like? What kind of triggers do you want? Is it warm and inviting? Is it sophisticated, is it chic? Is it fun and quirky? Like this then influences the marketing messaging and the visual identity, because if you're like a trendy kind of urban restaurant, you're going to want to speak to that type of audience, you're going to want to look trendy, you're going to want to have things that align, like you will choose the right influences or choose the right publications to align with and be in the right social platforms.
Speaker 1:Like this is so important, and that's obviously moving into marketing, but it's an understanding of who you're talking to, so that you can then create the perception, like, are they wearing an oversized band shirt or are they wearing a buttoned down Ralph Lauren shirt? It's understanding that the visuals that you put out, the words that you put out, will then create a personality to align to. So that's really important as well. And so then you need to also understand the brand value. So you hear me spewing about it all the time. Is it that they are like farm to table? So do they have, like you know, a real intention behind doing things right, like no artificial flavors, they're all about quality ingredients and the community focused and ethical sourcing. These values need to be reflected in the business operations and the marketing efforts as well. So they all work together to create that story and that unique identity, because that alone could be the differentiator.
Speaker 1:And then, of course, it's how do you communicate your brand visually? Logos, colors, design, photography all of that stuff plays a huge role in how people see you, and that is evident in brand identity and marketing material. Evident in brand identity and marketing material, because if you don't know that, looking at the logo, the colors and the, you know all of the visual aspects of it. This is simply an execution to the developed strategy. And so many people hence why I wanted this conversation because that's where most of the conversation started was how do I find the right colors? Well, it's like it's easy, because if you well, if you know what you're doing, but colors have a psychological alignment, there is color theory, there is color psychology, the whole thing around it will help you to shape the perception of what it's used for. So, for instance and I've used this example before if you were to use yellow for a you know a swimsuit brand, right, you know, and they've got yellow, summer and sun and happiness and friendships, and you see people at the beach like that will then give off. The association of you know, fun and happy and summer. When we're talking about teeth, is decay and mold, and you know the color of the teeth, and that is goes against having clean teeth. Even though the teeth naturally have a yellow tinge to it, people want to whiten their teeth. It's, it's a marketing thing, right? So when you then position your brand in a certain way, the color then has a huge impact on the perception, just like fonts.
Speaker 1:Do. Imagine if you received a government document that was written in comic sans. I use comic sans because everyone knows it's broad, it has its purposes, but comic sans would then make that document look unprofessional, and so this is what happens when you have people that don't know anything about design or don't know anything about brand strategy, developing something. Now, this can also happen with someone that really knows design. They could be designing this beautiful visual identity, but without that deep level brand strategy, they could be completely missing who they're meant to be targeting. Now your brand strategy needs to be a mix of who you are as a brand but also attracting those people that you want to associate with your brand. So it's kind of like a two-way approach. You need to make sure that it represents you, but in the same instance, it's attracting the people that you want to bring in. And so then we look at marketing strategy right, so they all cross over. This is how you'll get the word out about your restaurant and how to attract your customers. It's about putting your brand in front of the right people at the right time, and that will be things like where will you advertise? Are you on socials? Is it a local newspaper? Is it an online platform? This should be based on your target audience and your brand positioning. So how do you want to position your brand? I've spoke about this previously as well, so sorry if you hear me harping on about it, but I just think you know drum it in as many times.
Speaker 1:Toyota have Lexus and Toyota and Lexus was created off the back of Toyota wanting to do luxury cars. The problem was Toyota had an association to family-friendly, affordable cars, so people wouldn't justify the spend or the alignment and recognition to a high-profile car from Toyota. They needed to literally create Lexus to, you know, appeal to a completely different target market. This is also branded architecture. I will dive into this another time. But in order to create that right message for the right people, brand positioning is really important. So brand positioning for Toyota will target family-friendly, affordable cars. When you look at Lexus, they're targeting higher-end status symbol. You know luxury cars and so that needs to be really important, because then that then dictates where you advertise, where you are, and they're completely different audiences, socioeconomic status, completely different, you know, life cycle probably also completely different. And then it's understanding what it is that you need to say, and they would have two different messages as well. Even the visuals would need to look different.
Speaker 1:So this is where most people fall down. I always say it's brand positioning. But then it's also like what kind of content will you create? So this is where people will copy someone else's idea or their trend and they're like oh, we've grown by doing this. And then, but the thing is, it's so disjointed from what it is that you are as a brand that it's just totally off.
Speaker 1:You need to make sure that when you're creating content, that the tone and the vibe of it is in alignment to your overarching identity, because the moment that you do something that's out of character. People are like, oh, that doesn't make sense and it's off. So it's about making sure that if you are a funny brand and you do funny reels, of course that works. If you are a serious, high luxury, you know brand and you go and do something that's like slapstick takes the piss, people would be like what the hell? Unless that had been embedded into your personality and the way that you speak and the way that you do things which is also a differentiator, by the way then that would make sense. But if you were to just do it once off, watching what other people do? This is why it's so important not to follow what other people do, because what works for them may not work for you unless you have the exact same goal.
Speaker 1:And so then you look at what marketing channels will you use. So for us, as I've said before, seo is like one of our prime marketing channels. It is the one that generates the most leads, as is in-person events. So social media is also important. It helps to, you know, build that conversation and that story. But are you in the right place? Because you could positioning placement. You know that's kind of the same thing Placement is off the back of positioning. Are you positioned in the right place? So, where you are, you could be spending hours and hours of time and energy in creating social content and almost half, if not a quarter, of that time, creating email campaigns that go out. That could have a much higher conversion rate. And also, it might be that you just get a couple of in-person events that you can be at and the same thing there, and so then you go okay, how do I get more in-person events that you can be at and the same thing there? And so then you go okay, how do I get more in-person events? You then need to figure out how to do that.
Speaker 1:It's not just a matter of being on social media. That's the cool platform for people to be on, and I think that there's this misconception that that's where a lot of people have made their money, because you'll see the small minority speak the loudest there, whereas a lot of people have made their money because you'll see the small minority speak the loudest there, whereas a lot of people that have a huge following not all, but a lot of people that have big following or you know talk about their success there have got an omni-channel approach, which means that they've probably got paid ads going. At the same time, they've got lead magnets going. You know this big system and that's smart, because that means that they're not relying on one place, and you shouldn't ever rely on one place, because if something happens to that one place that you're in, you know and we've seen this happen you know, algorithms change and people lose their mind and it's like well, what have you done to adapt? Because this is what you need to be doing. This is why we have podcasts. We also have a, we also have, you know, emails that go out.
Speaker 1:This is, you have multiple ways that people can engage and connect with your brand. It shouldn't just be one platform and instagram, if you love, instagram may not be the place for you. It might not even be the place for you know, instagram um is the fame for like millennials and you've got tiktok. That's like it's. It's just because you use that platform doesn't mean that it's going to be the place for you to be. So you need to assess that too. And now these channels need to be chosen based on that target audience, not what you like, on your target audience, and so it's important for you to then look into the consumption. What are your audience looking at? What are they reading? What are they aligned with. That's deep audience analysis. That's so important, and this should be ongoing research for you to find this stuff out.
Speaker 1:You could make a shite ton of money by investing into the right platform and getting in front of the right people. It could be something really boring, but putting your money in the right place and your energy and time which is also an equivalent of money, by the way just because, if you're a business owner and you're spending an X amount of time on something that you think is free because you don't have to pay for anything, because you are the business owner, you're actually wasting money because it's time and energy that you're putting into something. So, instead of going around the circle, putting money into something that doesn't work, assess what does work, and so what marketing channels you use is also part of brand strategy as well as marketing strategy. These two cross over, and so it's also really important to understand how you then market and measure your marketing success. To understand how you then market and measure your marketing success, what's your website traffic say? What's your user engagement? What are your online reviews like? These metrics need to align with your business and brand goals.
Speaker 1:So you have a business objective, your brand then creates an identity so that you can achieve said business objective, and your marketing then does the work to make sure that it is going out, to get the attention it needs to build that connection with your audience. And so then there's a whole bunch of knuckle down. This is why marketing is such a broad umbrella. There are then multiple subsets of marketing that you need to then consider. So you will have like paid ads, you will have digital marketing in general, then you will have like social media marketing, and the list goes on right. That's just digital, it's like in person, you know.
Speaker 1:And so then the takeaway really is business strategy, brand strategy and marketing strategy are all interconnected and they influence each other massively. So, for instance, if your brand strategy isn't sound, what's then going to happen is you can't brief someone in that is doing marketing, because they will then ask you what's your tone of voice, what's your visual identity like? And if you don't have guidelines to tell them what to do, then there'll be inconsistencies because they'll just guess, and what will happen there is that you'll be guessing and paying for it until you get it right and what you want to make sure that you have down pat is who you're speaking to, messages that go out to them, and having the identity absolutely set in sound. And when I say brand identity, I'm talking about what your direction is, where you're going, how you're positioned, what perception have you created? That's your messaging, that's your direction is where you're going, how you're positioned, what perception have you created? That's your messaging, that's your visual identity, that's your tone of voice, that's your personality. All of that stuff's in there. And then you look at the promotion. It's like how you then execute all of the above. And that's when you look at marketing.
Speaker 1:Now marketing can actually dive into things, because all of them can kind of identify problems. So, for instance, you may have a brand strategy created. Someone may then put out your marketing and realize that there is an opportunity based on the data that they're receiving back from what you put out. And that's why it's always important to test your marketing strategy, because you could go oh, hang on a second, more people are liking what we're doing over here. Maybe we've actually got our audience wrong, and then you go back and you fix it. Or it usually starts with the brand strategy is incorrect or it hasn't been fleshed out as it should be and there's a disconnect, because you say and sound one way and you look another way, or your visual identity is simply not appealing to the audience that you are intended on targeting. So all of these things are so important to kind of nail down. And then a successful business really requires the holistic approach right, it needs all three strategies ticking along. And the problem is when you start a business at the beginning and then you grow and you scale and you get like five or six years in.
Speaker 1:We've seen this happen with businesses that have been in, you know, for 20 years. Their service has always been like what sold them, or their product has always been what sold them. And all of a sudden we're seeing the world change and people are wanting more about you, know the process, or more about the people, and we're seeing the rise of the personal brand. So what we're actually seeing is the rise of connection and who you are and why should people buy from you. And if none of that communication is coming out, you will see big brands that have notoriously been in the game start to come back backwards and unravel. We saw this with Tupperware phenomenal product. Horrible strategy. So they went out of business. We've seen this with Kodak. Kodak invented the digital camera and they were taken out by their own invention. Why? Because they put all of their effort into creating more film things, more print things, and now they innovated that space, but the world wasn't going into print, they were moving into digital at the time. So you know, it was just it didn't work and they went out, and it's because they did not listen to their audiences.
Speaker 1:And so the key takeaway is always going to be you need to really know what your audience wants, and you should be constantly, constantly looking at what they need, because without knowing who your audience is, you don't know how to position. If you don't know how to position, you don't know how to speak, you don't know how to look, you don't know how to speak, you don't know how to look, you don't know how to market. And then everyone goes oh, my visual identity is wrong, and it's like it's not that at all. It's that the messaging is wrong. And the messaging is wrong because you're not talking to the right people. And you're not talking to the right people, it's because you're in the wrong spot, so it's so. It's like kind of getting that roadmap out and figuring out where you need to be and then then plugging in the holes.
Speaker 1:And I think that when people get to a certain stage in their business you know if you may have been in business for 10 years they think that the brand strategy is fine and they try and look at new ways of marketing, when actually the brand strategy gets completely missed. Big brands invest millions and billions of dollars into their brand because without that recognition and without that right perception, people will create their own narrative around it. So it's up to brands to dictate the narrative and then the audience create the perception. So it's you create the narrative and then they then create the perception of the narrative that you set out. You can control the narrative. That is up to businesses to do. This is why PR exists. So or tries, they try to reshape the narrative. That is up to businesses to do. This is why PR exists. So or they try to reshape the narrative. That's why they go. There's a PR disaster. They need to come back in and try and reshape the narrative. That's what PR is all about.
Speaker 1:And then we look at the subset of marketing, which is like sales advertising. Sales will think it's its own thing. But there is like those things that sit underneath those games and how you do it. What's the plan? It aligns the sales that align to the marketing objectives, the marketing objectives align to the business objectives, like all of these things plug in. Then in any big agency they would say, nope, that's not on brand. You're pushing creative marketing out that looks cool but it does not align with the business at all, and so brand will then come in and stomp it and say, no, it's not on brand and you need people to be doing that thing internally. That's what needs to happen. Does it do this? X Y Z? Does it tick these boxes? X Y Z? Because sure, and slowly, over time, a lot of people that come in and they're not aware of the brand strategy will then slightly tweak how it works and then, bit by bit, it will start to unravel and then, before you know it, you've gone 10 years and all of those tiny little things that have changed over time have become a huge big problem and you're so far off the trajectory of what you started for. So it's about understanding the interplay between these strategies so that you could create a brand that actually resonates with your people and achieves the goals that you've set out to do with the business and then lasts longevity.
Speaker 1:So many businesses miss and struggle with their brand strategy, as I've said. So you might have a great product or service, but you haven't taken the time to define that brand identity or align it with the business and marketing strategies, and so this is what leads to confusion among customers. It's like a lack of differentiation, people always wanting to stand out. The problem is there's literally no strategy there to help you stand out, because you're just doing what everyone else wants to do, and so that's what leads to confusion amongst customers and it's a lack of differentiation in the marketplace and, ultimately, huge missed opportunities for growth. And this is what we're seeing at the moment, and what's happened is because people have pulled back on their spending. The difference is actually what's going to make you be worth the spend.
Speaker 1:So if you don't have, if you're just like everyone else, the only thing that you will be doing is creating. You know your brand will then just become a commodity and people will choose you based on cost. It's only when you've created such a strong brand identity that people will want to work with you based on trust, personality, who you are. When people come to inquire at you, one and Only, they are always saying we always say how did you hear from us? So it's like, oh really, I think you're really funny, or why did you choose us, sorry? Or we love what you stand for and we can feel your passion. None of it's ever because you guys are great designers. It's always about who we are as people or how we differentiate as a brand. So it's really just about identifying if you have a brand problem.
Speaker 1:So I would ask yourself these questions Do you have a clear brand story and a message? Does your brand resonate with your target audience? Are you consistently communicating your brand across all channels, and is your brand helping you achieve your business goals? Now, before I jump backwards there, everyone seems to think that they know their audience, but I bet you that most fail here, and it's only because the world has changed so much that values have changed and alignments have changed. So if you answered no to most of those questions, it's definitely time to revisit your brand strategy and consider how to align with everything, especially your overall marketing efforts and the overarching business strategy, because a lot of the time, people look at rebrands as like they're completely flipping everything on its head, when it's actually not that at all. It could just be that you need to fix the messaging up. It could be that you have been speaking to the wrong audience and you need to now go oh hang on, they're not who I need to speak to. Now the market's changed and those guys actually don't have the income to pay for something like what I offer. So I need to shift over here, because these guys over here do, and they like a completely different set of things, and so then you need to now go and re-educate yourself on what it is that the market needs, and test and optimize your marketing that goes out.
Speaker 1:Data will always tell you the results. What people do is indicative of unconscious behavior, subconscious behavior. They will do it without even thinking, and that will give you the most accurate result. This is why we've created the laboratory, and I will continue to talk about it. It's important. It is a three-part approach, so understanding the brain, and the first part is part of our d3 framework of dissect, dna and design, dissect being to diagnose the problem. Dna means to develop the identity, and design means to then execute it to attract the right people, and it's an in-depth way of brain brand and design in the laboratory, and the brain element of it is essentially aligning the business strategy. So you're looking at it from customer behavior you in terms of your behaviors, your own biases and being able to check those as well.
Speaker 1:But it's also about setting the perception, how to understand persuasion, figuring out the behaviors and biases of people so that you can then understand how to speak to them in a way that will be ethically convincing and creating psychographics and pain points and pleasure points, because what people say that they want, sometimes they actually don't, which is why you hear so many people say you know what is it that you need, and they will tell you something completely different when the actual thing that they need is over here. Hence the logo and the complete brand strategy from before. So it's up to you, as if you're in a service especially, to be able to diagnose the legitimate problem and give them the solution that they need. So that's what the brain lab is. Then we look at the brand lab, which is the DNA. So you're developing that five-part process.
Speaker 1:You're looking at purpose, you're looking at positioning, you're looking at purpose. You're looking at positioning, you're looking at personality, you're looking at the perception and then we're looking at the promotion and then of course you take that and you look at design, and design really focuses on that perception element. So we kind of take like a deeper approach into how you can then create the right perception and build out the right identity that will attract your audience. So if you want to know more about that, make sure that you jump into the show notes. But I hope that helped you to clear up the confusion, because it is when creating a business that can be overwhelming. This even sounds overwhelming, but when you kind of get a few things onto the board and you start to map it out, all of it then becomes really easy to understand.
Speaker 1:Because if you have an idea on how the strategies work and what it is that you need to look for in each of those places, then as you evolve and you change, you can then just go through like a checkbox and say have I done this, have I done that, instead of completely revamping something which may not need to be revamped. So I have had a lot of clients come to us where they have a solid visual identity but I'm like there's an issue here, there's a disconnect here and we need to reshape the audience alignment, and so then that's when we will look at something to you know, bring them back in line. It's just about finding out the right way to create the plan. So, as usual, if you have any questions, you know where to find me.
Speaker 1:But for now, I hope that helped you to clear up some of the confusion and so you can be able to, I guess, identify what's going on, because you know, if people are in marketing, they'll say it's a marketing problem. If people are in brand, they'll say it's a brand problem. If people are in business, they'll say it's a business problem. Obviously. But if you get an idea of what's in each of those things, which they do all cross over, you will then be able to understand the problematic areas and build a brand that can longevity, because as it evolves, you'll be able to spot the problem areas. So, until next week, I will chat to you soon. Did you like that episode? I hope so, because if you did, why don't you head over to whatever platform you listen on and rate and review? It's much appreciated and helps others know what we're about if you want to follow us.
