Brand and Butter
Always straight-talking (occasionally in-your-face), Brand and Butter is the no-BS branding podcast for modern marketers and business owners. Packed with clear-cut advice on the influence and power of branding - and how pairing associations, consumer behaviour, and design thinking can impact how we see, think, feel, and even taste.
Brand and Butter serves up refreshingly honest and never-dull conversations with some of today’s boldest brand strategists and architects. Sometimes funny, sometimes vulnerable (and often unapologetically blunt), this is the podcast that you wish you’d listened to before launch.
Tara Ladd is the Founder and Brand Strategist at Your One and Only, a brand and design studio here for brands who refuse to settle. Evolving brand identities to stay relevant fusing psychology, strategy, and design.
Brand and Butter
See How This Social Impact Startup is Trying To Reshape Societal Wealth
Ever wondered how a finance industry could operate if it genuinely prioritised the well-being of its customers over its profit margins? Kane Jackson, co-founder and CEO of Maslow, joins us to share insights into his human-centered approach that's creating talk in the financial sector. In this episode, I chat with Kane about Maslow's innovative strategies that extend equitable financial services to marginalised communities, and discuss my own, personal decision to endorse and invest in a company that's pioneering a societal shift towards inclusivity and aligning profit with customer interest.
Stick around for a really interesting discussion that promises to challenge your perspectives on finance, leadership, and societal change.
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You're listening to Brand and Butter, a straight-talking, occasionally in-your-face, no-bs branding podcast for modern marketers and business owners. Here for those who want to understand the influence and power of branding and how pairing associations, consumer behavior and design thinking can impact what people see, think and feel. I'm your host, tara Ladd, the sometimes funny, sometimes vulnerable and often unapologetically blunt founder and creative director of brand and design agency, your One and Only. Hi, hi everyone, welcome to this week's episode. I have someone freaking cool here today. His name is Kane Jackson.
Tara Ladd:I've been following him for a while on LinkedIn, actually, and what I really loved about Kane was his disruption in the general I guess, same-sy approach to my feed. What I found when he kept popping up was things he was saying that I was in strong alliance with and I was like, oh, who is this guy? Um, sure enough, we connected and he had a lot of connections in common, um, but I actually want him to introduce himself because I think he's creating something that is really awesome that I think a lot of people need to know about. So, kane, over to you, mate hey guys.
Kane Jackson:Um, my name's kane. I am the co-founder and ceo of a startup called maslow, and we are building a new finance industry for humanity. Um, the one we've currently got is pretty extractive.
Tara Ladd:It extracts from all of us and benefits a few of us, and so we're trying to flip that on its head and do it differently yeah, cool, and I think what people will really love about what you're doing differently is that it probably fits to more of the population than it doesn't, and I would love for you to dive into how you're doing that. But first, everyone knows that you're one and only, and what I do is all about disruptive branding and doing things very differently. We're here for those that are, you know, wanting to change the game, and I felt that Kane was probably a really good person to fit within that box to show, I guess, if you're at home wondering how you meant to do things differently, or how you know, as you are by yourself, or if you're with a team, how you can actually shake things up to be a little bit disruptive. You can actually do that in so many different ways, and I want to let Cain tell you how he's doing it with Maslow.
Kane Jackson:Yeah, I think you know, replicating templates or approaches to solving problems gets you pretty much wherever else goes. And if you're trying to do something that is quite genuinely innovative and different, with a different endpoint and that endpoint may be different depending on what you're doing but if you want to get to a goal that no one else has got to, starting to step outside of templates and try alternative approaches to making noise, getting attention, validation, support, all those sorts of things is really important, and you know we've been part of the last three years. For us has been, you know, about learning how to solve really unique problems. One of them is hey, how do you fix the finance industry? It's pretty fucking broken.
Kane Jackson:But the other one is well, okay, how do you communicate that to a market that is traditionally alienated by the finance industry? And you know we have this industry. That's really complex. It uses complex language and complex documents to really alienate people, but it's a problem that you know extracts the largest industry in the world right now. It's 25% of global GDP, it's grown three times since 1983. And it doesn't benefit the broader economy. So how do we start talking about that to a market that doesn't really want to know about the finance industry because it's yuck and scary and gross.
Tara Ladd:And I think, what is really different about what you're doing and for those playing at home, I've just invested in Kane's business and I think that you should all have a look and you don't have to invest a lot. But I think what I really wanted to invest in it for was, well, one, to support Kane, but, two, everything that they believe and stand for from a values point of view, and it is so, I think, important, and I'll touch on that in a second. But everyone knows that when I'm talking about brand, I talk about values, and if there's anything that everyone should be focusing heavily on, it should be your alignment with values, and when you expand or you grow as a brand, you will always come back to that foundational value um, alignment on what you should be investing in or what you should be aligning with and what you should be saying, and all the messages and all of those things that you know you grab, people gravitate towards, and if you haven't got that there, you're just constantly going to be jumping in and out trying to match. You know, whatever you think is right.
Tara Ladd:What I love about the model of Maslow is that they're actually targeting those that have never had a voice in the market before you know, specifically speaking to you know neurodiverse and you know the disabled community or women LGBTQIA community, and I think that this is just, heavily on point, the narrative that needs to be spoken to right now, because there is a huge societal shift happening and I actually am so here for it. But there will be dominoes that fall in this shift and I think that Kane is actually, you know, first to the market in this space, that is ready to shake things up and that will not be forgotten. So swing it over to you, kane. I would love to know what gave you the idea to focus on that space yeah, look, our first.
Kane Jackson:I come from healthcare, so I bring a really different perspective to, uh, servicing needs of people, which, you know, the healthcare sector would consider someone a patient more than a customer, and I think that's a fundamental point of difference. And I qualified as a paramedic and you know, as a paramedic, you go to a patient and your objective is to help them. You're not there to extract money from them. You're not there to see what you can get out of it for yourself. You get paid the same and you have to, you know, improve their outcome and it's all about improving that person's experience, from how you found them to when you leave them. And if you leave them at home, great. If you take them to hospital, fine. But you're looking, how do I give you the best outcome? And you know, the first FinTech I started was in 2015.
Kane Jackson:And we were trying to break down the barriers between retail investors and sophisticated investors and you know a lot of the industry understands that. You know a retail investor is everyone you and I. You know lay people in the street and you know the government and the regulator considers us pretty kind of like we don't know what we're doing, and so they protect us and they give us stronger regulations, and there are certain investment opportunities that we can't see because we're deemed to not be able to determine if they're right for us. And that means there's a class of investor called sophisticated investors, and they get a different set of opportunities. And we were trying to break down those barriers, because quite often a retail investor sees the opportunities that a sophisticated investor has already passed on. And so that was our first point of call was how do we break down barriers for people that exist in the ordinary world and give them better opportunities?
Kane Jackson:And that led us to identify the huge problem that exists in financial services, and that is that it's the only industry in the world that sells the exact same thing to customers that its shareholders want, and that's a really weird thing to think about. But when you break it down, every financial product whether it's a loan or it's insurance or it's an investment product it is selling a customer money. Insurance is selling you less expense later on. Investing is selling you more money later on for a fee. A loan is selling you all of the money now for a fee over time, and everything is selling you money, and the only way a company can make more profit is to actually give you less money or less product to give it to their shareholders. And that conflict is you can't manage it right, and that's why the industry constantly targets customers and erodes, you know, the quality of the product, because the profit drives them to do that. And so we really want to change that and remove the conflict, and we've developed a plan and a strategy to do that.
Tara Ladd:Yeah, so okay, that's interesting. So how do you then, as a business, become profitable from that?
Kane Jackson:Yeah, cool. So you know what we're doing in financial services is really unique or novel, but in terms of the I guess, the templates of business models out there that already exist, there's a few that we're quite similar to. So Costco, for example, which is one most people are familiar with, is you pay an access fee or an annual membership fee and it gets you access to a physical warehouse of products and they are sold to you nearly at cost price, right? And the theory is if you buy enough stuff, then the membership fee well and truly pays for the lack of profit on those products. And you know Costco makes 76% of their annual profit from the membership fees, right?
Tara Ladd:Yeah, cool.
Kane Jackson:It aligns them, funnily enough, with using the products you buy in store to establish value rather than to extract profit from them. So Costco is aligned with its customer. And you know there's similarities as well in like Netflix. The reason we all love Netflix is because, funnily enough, netflix as a company has the same objective we have as customers. We want good quality and enough quantity of content on platform to be entertained, and we want there to be more value than the expense that we pay in terms of the fee, right? So Costco's objectives sorry, netflix objectives are to give us quality content and enough of it, right? And if they don't do that, we'll stop paying. And so they're aligned with our interests.
Kane Jackson:We're constantly driving value, and Costco is the same, so we're doing that in financial services. So you'll pay a monthly fee or an annual fee. It'll give you access to cost price financial products. So insurance, banking, lending, investing, and all of those products will be sold to you at cost price. So you have to choose. You have to pay for them, you have to pay your way, pay for what you choose, but we never make any profits. So we're going one step further than Costco in saying we will never make profit from the products that our customers choose. We will only ever make our profit from the membership fees, and that for the first time in financial services, in retail financial services. It aligns us with constantly wanting to deliver value and increase that value, because that's the only way we will ever be able to make money is if customers consider that the benefit and the value we give them outweighs the cost.
Tara Ladd:Yeah, so it's like keeping each other accountable.
Kane Jackson:Absolutely, it's a complete alignment. If we don't give you an insurance product at a price or at a quality that's better or a price that's lower, why would you pay our monthly fee? So that aligns us with constantly seeking that out. And when we that's lower, why would you pay our monthly fee? So that aligns us with constantly seeking that out? And when we've got 10,000 customers, there's only so many things we can do to give you a better product. But when we've got 100,000 and then a million and it keeps growing, we can constantly drive volume discounts, we can seek better providers, we can build our own products, and so over time, the benefits to our customers should get better and better, rather than at the moment in the industry where they get worse and worse, because that's the way the profit alignment places companies and there's no one keeping them accountable.
Kane Jackson:Absolutely, I like this we've got the regulator um fighting, fighting an uphill battle, trying to manage, and you know the regulator exists because of the conflict between shareholders and customers yeah but there's only so much they can do.
Kane Jackson:We ended up with the Banking Royal Commission which said they didn't really do a good job because it got to that point. And so we go to the point or the intent of regulation and we remove the conflict and say hang on a minute, let's stop profiting from financial products and let's profit from the service in bringing them to people for people's needs, not for ours.
Tara Ladd:Yeah, and I think you can even tell that if you were to ask anyone what their vibes are towards the big four in Australia and every single one of them would say that they wouldn't trust any of them. It's just who's the less shit out of the most of them, right, I think?
Kane Jackson:look. Funnily enough, I take a bit of a different approach to that. I think, look, banking gets a really bad rap in Australia right Now. There's a reason for that they make a heap of profit and because there's only four major banks, you know you could argue there's a fifth.
Kane Jackson:But if you have a look at what banking is as a service or as a product today to most people like our age, like 40 and below, today fewer people have access to buying a home, for example, right, so your primary relationship with your bank is literally your deposit account. Right, it's a pretty easy sort of service. It does what we expect. But also, no bank in Australia has ever lost money for a customer and that's a massive deal. You know they do their job pretty well.
Kane Jackson:But if you talk about what is a bank going to give you today when you're no longer buying a home or you don't have access to it, maybe what is the value of bank ads? That question is getting like quite significant, because there's not a lot of value they can add. You tap your card, you use your online banking. It's like where's the value? And so we sort of look at banking and say, you know people hate banking, but I think they sort of that's the embodiment of financial services and it's, you know, financial. The financial industry is a bunch of like separate, siloed industries, but the end customer you and I look at that as one big money problem yeah, and we want it solved in one place. We want it solved in a way that serves our interests, not in a way where everyone is taking commissions on every single product. We don't know what benefits who and where, and that's the issue with that conflict yeah, it's really interesting because, um well, I'm studying human behavior at the moment.
Tara Ladd:I just love that stuff. Have you read nudge? It's a great book. So they talk about basically how the nut, uh, the government nudges behavior, or, like you know, anyone that's in, and it's really interesting, like you know, basically how, if they wanted to, they could shift behavior, like they did with smoking, right, um, so they were able to shift you. And so they talk about the same thing with red tape. If they don't want you to be able to solve a problem, they make something really complex and hard for you to understand. So I actually am wondering if you're going to piss some people off in this space that may come after you.
Kane Jackson:It's. Look, you wouldn't be the first one to say that we're going to piss some people off in this space. That may come after you. Look, you wouldn't be the first one to say that we're going to piss some people off in this space. The finance industry benefits from, I guess, the disparity between the understanding that an everyday person has and the understanding that a professional in this industry has, and they leverage that, they monetise that, they extract profit from that, and so you know, know, they hide.
Kane Jackson:The reason we have to have an 80 page product disclosure statement for an insurance policy or a bank account is because the industry is incentivized to harm us. Right? If we remove the harm element and the industry is no longer incentivized to do that, you start, funnily enough, having to remove, being able to remove, some of the protections. So, speaking of nudging behavior, one of the reasons it's so hard to navigate the finance industry at the moment is because the government has this duty to protect us all from being harmed too much, right? What if you remove the harm? Does the government have the need to protect us as much? Well, probably not. If we self-regulate, if we are in alignment with our customers' interests, we don't need this complexity in the regulation, which removes the red tape, makes it easier to understand and also makes it easier for people to sort of compare and understand what they're actually getting, which they can't do at the moment.
Tara Ladd:Yeah, and I guess you could say people will put my first thought was is that even possible, like. People will put my first thought was is that even possible, like, is it really possible? But then you look at Spotify. They pretty much did that exact kind of thing.
Kane Jackson:Yeah, I mean, look we? There's lots of examples of companies that you know completely revolutionize industries. You know Airbnb did it for accommodation, you know Uber did it for transport, the taxi industry and a myriad of sort of explanations. Netflix is a great one for Blockbuster. One of the things I think is really cool about looking at Netflix is Netflix changed what the product was. And if you have a look at free Netflix, you know Blockbuster or your local DVD, you know video shop. Right, the product was walking into the store and picking it off the shelf and going I want to watch that movie. It was $6 overnight or whatever it was. That was the product.
Kane Jackson:But now Netflix have said that individual movie or that series is not the product. It is the tool through which we establish value for the product. And the product is the platform and you pay to access it. And we want to do the same thing for financial products. And you know we are in the most regulated space and it is more difficult to do it. But by solving the conflict bit, by stepping back and saying, hang on a minute. The problem is where we make money in this industry. We make it in conflict with our customer. Let's get rid of that. Let's make it in alignment with them, and that just changes everything.
Tara Ladd:Yeah, and I think what's interesting is it's just like it's such a trust game. Now it's going to be your actually. Your role is now actually going to have to try and be to build that trust with an audience, because so many people just don't trust it. And I mean, I think we saw that off the back of COVID, there was so much, you know, so many things going on there with grants and the way people would receive them and who was paying tax and who wasn't paying tax. It was this whole thing. And so now there's just this big you know, and I find that when I gravitate towards financial, it's like it's very much in alignment with who they're supporting or what they're doing. So I actually think you're on the money with something really, really cool.
Kane Jackson:Look, I think you know Bank Australia are a really good example of a bank that's positioning to not harm the world or the society that they're a part of. And you know whether that's you know Bank Australia or whether it's Patagonia. There's so many different brands now that are all about saying, well, hang on a minute, we do operate and we can do that in a way that doesn't at least at a bare minimum, doesn't harm the world more than if we weren't doing it, and I think that's a huge opportunity. It's only going to grow. So, if we come back to trust, I think it is the most important thing in any relationship between a customer and a company or a service provider or whatever. It is right. And the reason we don't trust the finance industry is because, inherently, it doesn't matter how much we don't or do know about the finance industry. We know they're in it for them, right?
Tara Ladd:Yep.
Kane Jackson:If you can introduce a model that doesn't require me or the provider to say to a customer you can trust us, I should never have to say that, right, my model, the mechanics, the architecture of what we build as a platform can be built such that trust is inherent in the way it's designed. And by that it's simple logic, right? We engineer a model where we benefit as a company only if you benefit, right? So if we start undermining your outcomes, we lose customers, we lose membership fees, and if we lose membership fees, we fail. And so, all of a sudden, it is our job to work for you. So we talk about Maslow being an advocate for your financial journey through life. And that's true.
Kane Jackson:And the current industry doesn't allow anyone to say, anyone that says, hey, I have my customer's best interests at heart. They may balance them absolutely, but they're balancing them with their best interests as an earner, as a company, whatever it might be. And so we go one step further and say, let's align those things so that I should never have to say to a customer, hey, you can trust us, because the moment anyone says you can trust us, automatically people are going to be like, nah, there's no way. And so you know, one of the reasons we've been around now for three years in terms of learning how we solve this enormous problem, and one of the things we've learned is that saying you can trust us is just. It's not allowed. We can never be in a position where we have to say it. Customers, our investors, the market has to see the model and go well, they're kind of aligned with trust and so if they do the wrong thing by their customer, they're doing the wrong thing by themselves, and that's so different.
Tara Ladd:Yeah, hugely. And so I want to kind of talk about how you've managed to do that so far, because, you know, in a market like the one we're in at the moment, it's hard for people to let go of their you know what's the version market 101, how to let go of their cash. And I think what I love about the narrative that you're pushing out because this is a thing how do you build trust from something that kind of doesn't exist yet and I think it's just getting buy-in. And how do you get buy-in? It's by the stories that you tell and the values that you live by and the, I guess, the things that you speak about. You know it was.
Tara Ladd:What I loved was when you were calling out the bullshit business models of other companies that were just, you know, rorting people and going into detail about. You know how they were wrong, how they weren't working, how they're kind of not being upfront with people, and I think that that was just also setting a precedent to say we're not going to be like this. You know if I'm, you know, cause if you're going to be ballsy enough to get out there and call out someone, you best believe someone's going to try and do a back to you, right? So you're going to have to front up, and I think that was what I was like. Okay, he's putting his money where his mouth is. You know, people don't usually do that unless they've got some backing. It's like what I say to people if I'm talking about something, you better believe I know the answer. So you know, if you're going to come at me, just be prepared.
Kane Jackson:Like I won't speak to something unless I know the response to it. So and I think that that's what you do really well, I think, as someone who for the last like five years has been, you know, writing articles for news outlets or writing stuff on my own sort of channels, you know my brand. I hate that, but you know my approach to life is one of honesty. Be honest, hold people to account, you know, to those same standards that you would have you know yourself embody. And when I see people bullshitting their way through you know a business proposition or a marketing proposition, I go no, no, that's not okay, and I think everyone as a human relates to like honesty and authenticity. But when we were trying to design a model that people could look at and say, well, how do I trust that? And you know, building trust is this really interesting thing. But if you've got a business model that proves that you can't be trusted, it doesn't matter what you say. So, by default, if you have a business model that proves you can be trusted, it also doesn't matter what anyone else says. And so I'm a student of history and I love history. You know one of the things?
Kane Jackson:I read a book many years ago. It's called Blueprint and it's the evolutionary origins of a good society. And you know, you look at Maslow and what we are. We're building a community and we talk about. You know we want to have a billion customers and we say we want to have that within 15 years and if we look at that, what we're doing is we're building a community and we can call that a digital society.
Kane Jackson:You call it any number of things, but, um, what the author did is a professor by the name of nicholas christakis and um, he studied all of the um societies in um history that have been created from nothing and, funnily enough, the only way to actually study a society that have been created from nothing and, funnily enough, the only way to actually study a society that has started, like at a critical moment, that he taught. Yeah, well, he actually ended up looking at shipwrecks from his history, right, because if you look at this moment, where did it start? And well, it was a shipwreck, where, marooned on an island, and he looked at all of the commonalities between um, the, the societies that were created that succeeded and failed, and all of the ones, and there were only a couple of them out of the hundreds. He looked at all of the site, the three, I think it was two or three um, new communities or new societies that succeeded, all started with an act of selflessness selflessness by a leader. And you know, one of the examples was in a shipwreck. The captain was quite wealthy and then his ship's mate was holding a bag of like gold and currency and a family was drowning and the captain told his mate to throw the bag of cash away and save the family.
Kane Jackson:And that was the founding, I guess, relationship foundation between the leader of that community or that society and the group of people that came to rely on them. And so when we set about building Maslow, it was sort of a given that I knew we would have to sacrifice things ourselves. So as founders we have a cap on our returns so we can only earn so much from Maslow. We can't become billionaires. Not many founders do that. We gave our equity to a pool so that our customers could own a part of Maslow and over time we give all of, almost all of Maslow to our customers. And it's sort of like well, if you are asking people to buy into this new mission, this new community that is perceivably for the benefit of all of us. It has to be for the benefit of all of us.
Kane Jackson:And I think it's where that you know the foundations of building trust for us come from.
Tara Ladd:So hey, just a quick one. Have you ever felt like your marketing is just like throwing spaghetti at a wall and hoping that it sticks? Wouldn't you rather have the power to predict what works and what bombs, a deep connection with your audience, knowing exactly what makes them tick? Well, get ready to level up, because we're introducing the Brain Lab, your secret weapon to crafting insanely persuasive marketing. This is where behavioral science meets real world results. We're diving into the fascinating psychology behind why people choose the brands that they do. Think of the Brain Lab as your crash course in consumer psychology, audience analysis and the art of persuasion. If you want to join us to build a brand so damn irresistible your customers wouldn't think twice, then grab your spot, because we're getting started by kicking off with a free masterclass in two weeks. So this is your chance to get a sneak peek at the power of the Brain Lab. We'll put the link in the show notes. Your chance to get a sneak peek at the power of the brain lab. We'll put the link in the show notes.
Tara Ladd:Yeah, I love that, and you know it's really interesting. There's a high school that's just been. Um, we're in one of the fastest growing areas in Sydney, but, um, yeah, there's a high school that's just, you know, a couple of years back being built, and they've only got this at the highest grade in the school is year 11 and they don't take anyone into the school. Only you can only start from the beginning, and so what they've done is they've built this culture. And I was talking to my neighbor who's a teacher about it yesterday and I was just like that is fascinating and really cool because it's just specifically by what you just said. Then you know, starting from scratch, it starts by you know the leadership and you know if that's got shit leadership in in the school, it's gonna build you know crap culture and and that's what it is, isn't. If that's got shit leadership in the school, it's going to build you know crap culture, and that's what it is, isn't it? It's essentially the leadership, it's a trickle down culture.
Kane Jackson:I think you know this. Building communities is kind of like a. It's a very in vogue thing at the moment. Right For companies to say, hey, we're building a community, and that's because community-led growth is really powerful. But it's been, I guess, commandeered for commercial reasons, where so often building a community has nothing to do with the community, it has nothing to do with adding value, it has everything to do with capturing an audience to extract from them, and that's not a community.
Kane Jackson:And if you have a look at what we are doing, if we're going to say, hey, we are building a community because we all, we want all people who use the finance industry to have the same access to it as well as receive the same benefit from it. You know, whether you've got a hundred million dollars in the bank or you've got a thousand dollars, if you've got a car, you still need car insurance, right, and yes, it's different for your ferr Ferrari as it is to your Corolla, and we get that. But the way you assess the product is almost exactly the same. It's like how does this give me the benefit? And at the moment we've got a finance industry that benefits the wealthy 5% of the world who own it and extracts from all of us. Well, hang on a minute. It's the largest industry. We all have to use it. It should also be the largest publicly owned utility, or the largest community, or the largest digital society, where we all have a vested interest in the outcome yeah, I love this and it's interesting, isn't it?
Tara Ladd:with um, you see the political shift happening with, like, the progressives versus conservatives, and you know, I always find that those that are quite strict in their conservative view it's that they have to kind of give. They're the ones that have to give, and so it's like, and it's the same thing with the patriarchal structure which you talk about often, which you know I'm all about, and it's it's the same thing Someone has to give in order to have true equality, and that's where we're seeing a lot of friction at the moment. So I actually really love what you're doing because it kind of and without me knowing too much about it, it kind of is trickling into Web3, isn't it? Like you know, with the whole blockchain and the, I guess, the cutting out the middleman, for you know how does that, how do you like, I guess, in terms of innovation, how do you see that progressing into that space?
Kane Jackson:Yeah, look, there's a lot of crossover in what I speak of as Web3 principles and we've stayed away from adopting a Web3 approach from the outset because there's still a lot of discomfort in the mainstream with Web3, with blockchain, and that came from the speculators that tried to extract value from a new industry, which always happens. So we're trying to stay a little bit clearer. That said, there's some incredible values in Web3 and like DAOs decentralized, autonomous organizations, right, where there is a decentralized management structure, essentially, where everyone gets to vote on important matters that affect the group. And one of the, I guess, departing criticisms of DAOs where you can buy coins and the number of coins indicates how much you, how many votes you have is that it's replicating the power structures that we're trying to break down. Right, if you've got wealth, right, you know democracy is being hijacked by wealth. And if you have wealth, you can buy more voice. You buy more votes. That's a problem, it's a fundamental problem. You buy more votes. That's a problem, it's a fundamental problem.
Kane Jackson:And when we are all forced to use the finance system if we want to access the economy, we can't have this industry that benefits some people more than others. It's not right. That is just this, you know, perpetuates wealth inequality. It perpetuates income inequality. It's hugely problematic. So if we look at, you know, the Web 3 principles, let's decentralize everything Benefit, let's decentralize voting entitlement, but keep it equal. So Maslow has got one really simple principle is that as a customer, you're entitled to one ownership unit and one voting unit, right? And it doesn't matter whether you've got a million bucks or $10, you get a vote and your vote or your voice matters just as much as everyone else, right? Will we eventually transition into a DAO or, like a Web3, distributed ledger type ownership structure? Maybe, I don't know, it's not on the technology, doesn't it?
Kane Jackson:Yeah, absolutely, and I think eventually if it does, you know, we have to work within the confines of the traditional or the incumbent finance industry for quite a few years until we can start making products for our customers at the moment. So give me an example of that. Like we can buy, go to an insurance underwriter and say, hey, write us a car insurance policy and we're just not going to add the retail profit margin on it. And that could be 30% right, so I can offer that to my customer for 30% less, but the wholesaler or the underwriter is still making about a 20% margin profit margin on the product.
Kane Jackson:If you flash forward 10, 15, sorry, 5 or 10 years, to the point where I don't know, I've got a couple of million customers in Australia and we're all over the world doing different things, I can say, well, hang on, a minute, I've got your bank with us Now. Well, hang on a minute, I've got your bank with us Now, not as many people are borrowing as they used to. So can we do different things with a pool of capital? And if we've got a pool of capital and it belongs to all of our customers, we can say we can use your bank deposits to build an insurance fund and we can insure you under a model where we're not trying to make profit on that money, we're just trying to serve a need or solve a problem for a customer, and you're still paying $5, $10, $15, $20 a month, depending on how much value you get from Maslow. But all of a sudden we start reducing the price of insurance simply because we're reducing the profit margin and all of the middlemen out of the exchange.
Tara Ladd:So in theory we get cheaper and better with customer volume, as opposed to at the moment where the products get worse and worse, because every year companies are expected to make more and more profit and the only way they can do that is to screw the customers yeah, and I guess what I love most about what you're doing is that you're asking for an opinion and I think, as we and we're in case that no one's noticed, the world has shifted so much in how we make choice, like um, I have to keep reminding people. Like um, I've just I got off my bike this morning. You know, I got on it for the first time in bloody hell, I don't know how long, but it was just. It just gave me the idea of understanding how business works in terms of sprints, right, and you know, coming to the conclusion of we see things as like this long. Obviously, business is a marathon, anyway, it should always be seen as a marathon but you do these tiny little sprints in the meantime to kind of tick over each you know individual thing and I think what we've seen is that you know, on trajectory of any business outlook, we've seen things happen in the market, in the economy, that go up and down and that's like in basically long-term investments, right, they go up and they go down, they go up and they go down and by the end of it you'll get money or you won't, like.
Tara Ladd:That's kind of just how it works. But you don't just sell a stock the minute you buy it. It doesn't work like that. But what I love about what you're doing is that we're looking at where we are now, and I think that what we see in the market at the moment is there has been, and what I loved most about what you posted yesterday I think it was Adam Galloway, is that what his name was?
Tara Ladd:uh, yeah, the um the wealth, wealth inequality piece, yeah, so what I loved about that, so if anyone hasn't seen, I'll drop the link in the show notes. I'll actually link um to kane's profile on that because I thought it's a nice double. You know, um. But what I loved about that was how it spoke about how finance or how inequality in the taxing system has actually trickled down into societal behaviour which has become really damaging on like a foundational level. And I think what I find fascinating about what you're doing is it could essentially knock down into the you know trickle down economy where it could actually eliminate societal social problems.
Kane Jackson:And that's, I guess, what- we're actually trickle up, which is quite interesting, is it?
Tara Ladd:Yeah, well, yeah, um, and that's.
Kane Jackson:I guess we're actually. We're actually trickle up, which is quite, is it? Yeah, well, yeah, where we are a grassroots movement that benefits and is led by our customers, right? So if we have a look at um at the moment, we get this finance industry that's defined by the people who run it and the people who own it and benefit, but from it, which is this five percent, it's really wealthy group of people, shareholders um, you know they own it, they define it. It, which is this 5%, this really wealthy group of people, shareholders. You know they own it, they define it, blah, blah, blah.
Kane Jackson:If we have a look at what we're doing, we're saying you're experiencing all of this shitty, I guess the pointy end of the stick you get as a customer. We want to change that for you and you're right in that. You know businesses are. You know a series of sprints. But I think one of the really important things with Maslow is we give people a notion that by becoming a part of something like Maslow, we will give you some benefit now, but over time that benefit will get greater and then over time, that benefit will not just benefit you as an individual, it will benefit society. And if we have a look at. You know the finance industry. Yeah, it was 8.3% of GDP in 1983. It's now 25%.
Tara Ladd:Can you simplify that term for? One second If we're going to break down like jargon, I think, like I hear this all the time and I'm like I have no idea what this means.
Kane Jackson:Yeah, cool. So there was a. There's an economist and a really well-known guy. He's from the UK, his name is Lord Adair Turner right, cool name. He was in charge of the UK's financial regulator in 2010.
Kane Jackson:And he stood up in front of an audience and said there is no proof whatsoever that the growth in the finance industry has grown the broader economy, but there is plenty of evidence to suggest that it extracts from the broader economy to fuel its own growth. So you take a step back and you go hang on a minute. We've got an industry that's owned by five percent of the population about and it's growing expense, growing. About 2003 it grew 9.9 percent in size right, huge. But it only benefits that really small group of people and and it does that by extracting from the rest of us. Okay, so it's growing and growing and growing, but it's harming society and I believe it's the greatest contributor to wealth inequality today and income inequality. It is this massive tool that is designed to extract value, which is money, from a large group of people and direct it to a few, and that is just enormously problematic. And we're starting to feel as though you know, you put your finger on the pulse at the moment of society, the zeitgeist is everyone feels like we're under attack. It doesn't matter whether you are on the left or the right, or you are in the middle. Everyone feels it right, and I think we manifest that into all sorts of different conversations. One is environmental sustainability, and we, hey, we have to save the world if we're going to be here in 200 years' time, and we do.
Kane Jackson:But there's still something else it's harder to be and exist and to flourish now than it's ever been. Why is that? And one of the things that not a lot of people want to talk about is the fact that we've got this huge finance industry and it is extracting using, like really damaging products, payday lending, credit cards, um, whatever it might be, it's about how do we get as much money out of people by selling them money for a financial product, which is money? How do we? How do how do we do that? And the answer is by extraction, and we have to change that. And you know, I believe the world feels like it's under attack because, well, capitalism is getting to that later stage where wealth is ultra-centralised, in the hands of a few. But the finance industry has a massive plays a massive role in that it sends money to these people. You know, these people become the venture capital investors and they're the people that benefit from companies when they become billion-dollar companies and it's like everything's extractive, but it only benefits a few people and it's just wrong.
Tara Ladd:Yeah, and those people that sit at the top are a very certain type of person, aren't they?
Kane Jackson:Yeah, and, like you know, statistically they are men, um, and you know, the wealth holders are statistically men, um, I think I, you know the, I think a quarter of I'm not going to quote, I can't remember the stat but, like the, the domestic wealth inequality in australia is skewed so much towards um to towards men. It's not even not even funny, and you know, we've got. You know, if you're not, if you are born a woman or let's just say not a man, um, and you were born without wealth, that's probably how you're going to die, and you know that's because the world doesn't give you a chance. You know, and one of the, I guess, horrible characteristics or traits of the finance industry is that it charges people with the least the most, and that's really weird. You take a step back and actually think about that. It's the only industry that charges people who can least afford it the most to access it. If you've got a shit credit rating, you pay more for a loan.
Kane Jackson:If you don't have any money, you get a payday loan and they are loan sharks and the industry preys on you because you are risky. But that makes it hard to live your life and that's just mentally wrong.
Tara Ladd:Yeah, we all know that it's. I think it was. What I love about Kane is that he you know what now in this society and everyone knows I'm a hardcore feminist is the conversations that you lead about investment in women, and I have obviously a very predominant women market, like that. Listen to this podcast. I know there's some cool dudes that listen as well. I love to change critical thinkers. Good one, thanks for being here.
Tara Ladd:But, like I think what I it's really interesting in the language that you need to use as well, and I mean this can be used for everyone, and I mean coming from a woman that's worked in the ad space, we I mean this can be used for everyone, and I mean coming from a woman that's worked in the ad space. We know how that turns out. I've actually really learned how to manipulate. Well, not manipulate, but to restructure a sentence so that someone else thinks that it's their idea. That's bullshit, by the way, but sometimes it has to happen. And what I've actually found when I've been having conversations with people in, you know, in comments, where I'm in disagreeance, is that what I find, and this is what I think in terms of overarching, not even just, you know, in business, just in general conversation, because the world is so heated at the moment, like you said, everyone feels like they're under attack. Men feel like women hate them, women hate men like this. But it's actually not like that at all. It's like, you know, if it depends what silo you're stuck in as well, and I think that the conversation is that we actually just need to stop and listen and to observe, and I think that that's what I really love. And by you giving someone their one vote, one voice, that's their opinion. It doesn't matter where they sit in societal structure or whatever it is that they have or whatever social influence they have. You are equal in what you think should happen to society, and I think that is so powerful because the people that and, like you said, it does start at grassroots, the people that can make the most change, are always the ones that have felt the bottom of the rung.
Tara Ladd:Um, so, from my perspective, you know I grew up in a family where it wasn't, you know, great. There was a whole thing. There was a builder screwed over my parents business and there was a whole thing that went on when I was a kid, and so there's a whole. You know this stress from when I was a childhood, right, so I know what it's like to live in a very money tight family, right, so I was. And so then you have all these blockages, right, when you get older. And but then you, your perspective changes on what you actually value, what you should value, what shouldn't value, um, and then obviously, I became, I worked in the space of, you know, ads, and I saw the differences in how men and women were treated, and I even worked in a really good culture, um.
Tara Ladd:But then we moved on further and then I became a mom, um, and that's when I noticed the big change and I was like, oh fuck, this is what everyone's been talking about. Um, and that's when I noticed the big change and I was like, oh fuck, this is what everyone's been talking about. And that's when I noticed it all change. But from that, that's when I became really aware of what was happening in society.
Tara Ladd:Now, I've always been someone that's fought for the underdog, right, just how I've always been. But it really opened my eyes to a lot of different things and I was like, okay, I need to do a bit of looking into here. It's not about white feminism, it's actually about understanding a full thing, and so I was having conversations with people. I've got two of my African-American mates who I love and adore and they were just just a general discussion with them in one day opened my eyes on. You know, we can't go to that part of America, we'll die, and I'm like oh what? And then, like it's just like, you know, you open your eyes and then you create the change, because now you have perspective from someone that you've actually loved and can have.
Kane Jackson:You know, I guess, an emotional and empathetic conversation with yeah, there's very you, very, you know, I think it was. I think Abraham Lincoln said I don't much like that man, I best get to know him more. Yes, I think it's this age old thing that we want to hate this faceless enemy. And you know, once we get to know people and know people's stories, and this is why diversity in teams, in leadership, in funding, is so fucking important, because being around people that have a different perspective changes yours and I think you know we it's so.
Kane Jackson:There are so many people in the world that think that for people to become more equal, they have to become less, and it's not how works. No one has ever lost equality. To give it to other people, they lose authority, they lose wealth, they lose all sorts of things, but they've got too much of it already. Correct, I have an abundance mindset. There is enough to go around. And you know I have very strong views on billionaires. They should not exist. They're a policy failure and that's one of the reasons why we capped our potential return as founders in Maslow. We cannot become billionaires. And why should we be able to? Why would you want to? Why should I? Because I might have come up with a good idea or a great design to capture a huge market share. Why should I get billions of dollars by extracting from millions of people? It's just fundamentally wrong. Nobody needs billions of dollars and it changes people.
Kane Jackson:There's that massive problem as well and I just think you know too many people think that to give, you know, minority groups or people who are more vulnerable, more equality, more equity, more access they have, they think they're going to lose out or they think that there's this like they're coming for them. They're not. You know it's the same argument. It's like gays and trans people are coming for family values. No, they're fucking not, not at all. They don't want your you know white picket fence life. They don't want that a lot of the time and they're certainly not coming for it.
Kane Jackson:You know I I get really uncomfortable when people make the argument that because people experience life differently to them, they're coming for you and it's like they're not. They just want to be able to get through the day. They want to be able to feel like a human, not, not, not like they're subhuman. And we've got all these structures all around us in society, all around us in our financial systems. You know the patriarchy, you know colonial structures left over from centuries ago that are built so deeply ingrained into our financial system and we need to change them. And it doesn't mean that you know, just you know if you're a cishet white man, it doesn't mean you're going to lose out, like we're not going to burn your house down, like calm down. It's not that we want to erode what you are and what you have. It's just we want a little bit more.
Tara Ladd:We want it, we want it to be a bit fairer and it's not a big ask, and most of the time they probably won't lose as much as they think.
Kane Jackson:Anyway, Well, I don't know that they're going to lose anything. Maybe they won't make as much, maybe they won't extract as much, but it's pretty hard to take money from people who have already got it.
Tara Ladd:And you know what I think it's also, um, I, I have conversations with my husband all the time, you know, just about general privilege and understanding things, and they're just self. They like they just don't understand. Um, he's pretty good, but, like, sometimes I'm like, are you like, are you aware? And a lot of the time go, I don't know what you're talking about.
Kane Jackson:So it's taken me years. My first degree was psych and I've always been interested in how people operate. I think you know having a psych background is probably the best qualification for business, because everything in business is people. I would much prefer to do a psych degree than a commerce degree, because if you don't understand how people operate at their core, what makes them tick, how they will behave in any given situation, then you don't know anything about business.
Kane Jackson:Yeah, but if we have a look at, I guess, privilege, it comes into an acknowledging privilege and acknowledging all sorts of things. It comes down to self-awareness. And one of the things, one of the facts I stumbled over, you know, not that long ago, was the fact that I think it's about 50% of the population report that they think they're self-aware. But when you do the psychometric testing, only 10% on average show consistent signs that they are able to be self-aware. So we've got 10% of the population. Right Now. Women, funnily enough, are 86% more likely to exhibit self-awareness than men. So that kind of explains why a lot of the time it feels like men aren't self-aware, they aren't aware of their privilege, they don't know how to acknowledge it without their entire world falling apart. And I think we need to have a conversation.
Kane Jackson:You know, self-awareness drives me nuts and you know we look at our leaders today and Scott Morrison was a fucking wonderful example of someone who lacked self-awareness. He had no access to it. And if you have a look at him appointing himself to ministerial portfolios because he wanted control and he didn't once, he didn't once you can tell have that internal monologue with himself is how's this going to look? How does it look? How am I behaving, how am I acting? And you know we have all these discussions about who's fit to lead us, but we don't talk about hey, are they psychologically prepared to do that? Are they wired? Do they have self-awareness? Are they capable of empathy?
Kane Jackson:Lots of people are not capable of empathy to a level that I think leadership requires. You know, only last week we heard that Scott Morrison suffered debilitating anxiety during his tenure as prime minister, right? And yet if you want to talk in the public domain about, hey, let's run our leaders through psych evaluations to make sure they're capable of leading, and people go whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, why would you do that? That's not fair, it's not appropriate, it's not whatever. Very appropriate, sorry, it is. And to find out retrospectively that he was being treated for depression, and there's nothing wrong with that. But the point is we should be asking, hey, are people wired for the roles that they fulfil? And a lot of the time, because we have a lot of men running the world, they're not.
Tara Ladd:No, and I yeah, well, I mean, all you need to do is look at Jacinta Ardern, like, whether you like her policies or not, she was respected, not because of the policies that she led, but because of the way she acted, and people trusted her more because of that and but like what you just said then, in terms of the psycho and it's like I've had depression. Like a couple of years ago I went through postpartum and I was like dealing with a whole bunch of shit. There is no way I would want to be running a country in that headspace because you are just not thinking very, very negative.
Kane Jackson:Absolutely, and you shift from being outward looking and open-minded and facilitative of growth of other people and leadership to like inward looking and introspective, and you batten down the hatches because that's what our brain tells us you need to do. I need to protect myself and the things that are important, and we go into this place of how do I survive right now? And that is not a place of leadership. Leadership, it doesn't matter. I don't care what your view of leadership is. It is a you know I'm. My belief is that leadership is about equipping people to not lead need leadership at all. Yes, it's about being the best that they can be, and you can't do that if you don't have self-awareness and self-reflection yeah, I agree with that wholeheartedly.
Tara Ladd:Yeah, I think this is a great conversation and I'm also like I guess, from I've had conversation with business owners. You know, moving into that space that feel that they aren't. You know, you may found a business and you may be fucking phenomenal at that innovation, but it doesn't mean that you need to actually then become the head or the CEO of that business. It might mean that you just stay in that creative role and you hand that you know leadership to someone else that can take it to that space, because sometimes we can be the innovators and the idea thinkers but not the person that manages that part of the business. You know, sometimes you've got to know when to let go of the reins.
Kane Jackson:I think I've always found myself in leadership roles. You know whether it was at school, house captain or whether it was. You know I was trained as an officer in the army. You know whether it's. I've had a few lives, but I've always, I've always tended towards leadership roles. But I, I hate leadership. I hate being the one people turn to. I absolutely loathe it.
Kane Jackson:I love to be led, but I'll be honest, I have really really high standards of leaders and I'm naturally drawn towards women leaders more than men and, funnily enough, it's because of their self-awareness, it's because of their comfort with vulnerability. Leadership needs vulnerability and I hate the fact that, I hate the fact that I have to lead. Um, what we are building and I'm okay at it, yeah sure, and I will do it for as long as I need to do it, but I, I am. I'm literally craving the day where I meet someone that can do what I do better than me, so that I can just go. Absolutely, I will rally behind you and I will help you be the best you can be. Um, but you know it wasn't, it wasn't being done, no one was acting, and you know I'm just sick of the status quo.
Tara Ladd:Yeah, and I think you, I think it's great that you've done it and someone will come along, but I think right now, yeah, I think you are, you are needed. Do you know why I think you needed? Because you do the things that other people like what I, what I say about disruption, I think and this is why we had to go through a bit of a rebrand last year um, we were like, not that we were playing safe, but like I was like, well, I've always been really outspoken, I need to bring that to the table. So then everything I had to shift to align to that.
Tara Ladd:I think that's where a lot of businesses don't understand. You can't say you're disruptive or you're bold, or you're out there and then not actually do those things. And I think that that's what's great, right. It's like you have to live and lead and do with intention in order to build that trust. And so rocking up and being disruptive, it's risky and it's challenging, and people want to say things, but then they're fearful of what other people will say in return, and I think that that's why I respect what you do so well is because you just go it, I'm going in, but then most of the time you have so much support, there might be one or two people that jump in and then everyone's like so you've built your own community I only ever feel as though I'm saying what everyone else is thinking and it might not be what everyone's thinking, but it's usually the majority.
Kane Jackson:When I say something, I call it a LinkedIn tantrum, and I had one yesterday. You know where I'm just like it's bullshit. Why do women and women-led companies only get 2.8% of VC funding? It's bullshit. The facts are. The facts support it. You know, blah, blah, blah. And I just think I I've never thought about you know my views being, I guess, leadership views, or novel, or innovative or whatever, or progressive, but I think one of the things that we, as people in society, from the moment we go to school, we get taught to fit in right, we get taught not to upset people, not say mean things, not. You know blah, blah, blah. And yes, you've got to treat people with respect and you know I treat people how I want to be treated and I want to be treated with honesty, and so that's how I treat people. But if I think about why so many people are afraid to actually drive change, it's because driving change makes you a target.
Tara Ladd:Yeah.
Kane Jackson:And I have experienced my fair share already and I will experience much more of people strong, powerful people who don't know how to acknowledge their privilege, coming out and saying I'm you know, I'm bad. Someone called me. Someone said I was like Andrew Tate and I'm like. Well, I am gay. So Andrew Tate thinks I should die. So there's probably much else we share in common, but, you know, there's all these things and I think no one who has ever achieved real change has been liked by the people that change takes benefit from. But it's time we took benefit from, you know, the status quo.
Tara Ladd:Great, I agree. Well, this has been great Convo. I love that we got there. I think it's important to talk about the structure, but it's also it's so important to talk about the emotional drivers and, like we both have studied that, that space, and I think it's just so and what I've seen is that with the rise of you know AI and all these like really robotic kind of you know dialogue, it's so important to bring in those human elements of you know, basic human empathy and compassion and caring for each other.
Tara Ladd:Because if we don't keep that in business and we are very much in, I, playing a role of responsibility in the narratives that we lead on a much bigger place then how are we meant to change what's happening if we don't, you know, break that system a little bit?
Tara Ladd:And I think that has to come through with real conversation and, you know, just upsetting people a little bit, because you know we can all get stuck in our own bias and it's really good to have a conversation with someone. I love to read comment sections I could dive into them for days just to get different people's perspectives and I think it's so important to do that because sometimes you go, oh yeah, I didn't think about that. And if, the more that people do this, the more that we'll start to understand, because, no, we're not always right. And I, if, the more that people do this, the more that will start to understand, because, no, we're not always right. And I think that you should always enter a conversation with change my mind Versus I'm right. And a key giveaway to me is when you have a conversation with someone and all they do is talk about the Past and not the future. To me, I'm going, you're kind of stuck, so I love that what you're doing, it can't be done a lot.
Kane Jackson:You know you can't do it that way. It's not done that way. No, we know, we are well aware of that. I think one of the things I bring to, I try to bring to everything I do, and maybe I don't even think about it anymore. It's probably subconscious, but I believe there is absolutely no point in doing anything unless it makes something better for the people around us, right? And I think if we all, you know I don't think many people are prepared to ask that about their careers, their jobs, the way they make money. But you know I stand back in everything I do. I'm not money driven. You know I had one of my shareholders introduced me to someone the other day and said Kane is mission obsessed and yeah, our mission will succeed if we make money and that's logic and common sense. But logic and common sense.
Kane Jackson:But I'm, you know, I'm driven by this obsession with the fact that if we all asked how is what I'm doing making the world better, then we would all be better off. And you know we all, so many people, look at how am I making wealth for my family? How am I helping myself? How am I blah, blah, blah. And because we all do that, we're all trying to take from everyone rather than try and work together.
Kane Jackson:And I just think we can achieve so much more by saying, hey, yeah, of course we all need to make money. We all need to, you know, save up and go on a holiday. Life is to be lived, but you can do and live and flourish and thrive without trying to attack on the attack. Too many people are trying to screw other people, forgetting that. You know. I think one of the greatest ironies in people trying to accumulate wealth for their family and their kids is that they're fucking the world in the process. And what is the point? Go to South Africa, what's the point of having money if you use it to live behind walls? And that's the way our society is going.
Tara Ladd:Yep, yep, I agree with that wholeheartedly. Well, thanks for the chat today, cain. It was absolutely awesome. Now tell everyone what you're trying to do right now? All about it.
Kane Jackson:Yes. Well, we're raising money from the crowd on virtual. With three days left, we have 200 investors. We are building an army of supporters and subject matter experts people who just hate the patriarchy, people who want to see change. So you can invest on virtual for as little as $250. Make sure you read all of the, you know the risk warnings and offer documents before you do that. But anyone can get involved. We don't care who or what you are, where you are in the world. If you want to see change in the world's largest and most damaging industry, have a look at Maslow.
Tara Ladd:Yeah, that's awesome. And now, how can they find you? Where can they find your stuff On LinkedIn?
Kane Jackson:Yeah look, I'm pretty active on LinkedIn, maslowcomau, but also if you go to virtual or just do a Google search for virtual.
Tara Ladd:I'll drop it in the show notes.
Kane Jackson:Yeah, you can have a look at it. There's a video on there that succinctly explains what we do, how and why, as well as our offer document, and you can read all about us.
Tara Ladd:Love it Well. Thanks for the chat today, cain.
Kane Jackson:Thanks.
Tara Ladd:Tara, see you guys next week. Did you like that episode? I hope so, because if you did, why don't you head over to whatever platform you listen on and rate and review? It's much appreciated and helps others know what we're about. If you want to follow us, you can find us at yourwannanonly underscore au on Instagram.
