Brand and Butter
Always straight-talking (occasionally in-your-face), Brand and Butter is the no-BS branding podcast for modern marketers and business owners. Packed with clear-cut advice on the influence and power of branding - and how pairing associations, consumer behaviour, and design thinking can impact how we see, think, feel, and even taste.
Brand and Butter serves up refreshingly honest and never-dull conversations with some of today’s boldest brand strategists and architects. Sometimes funny, sometimes vulnerable (and often unapologetically blunt), this is the podcast that you wish you’d listened to before launch.
Tara Ladd is the Founder and Brand Strategist at Your One and Only, a brand and design studio here for brands who refuse to settle. Evolving brand identities to stay relevant fusing psychology, strategy, and design.
Brand and Butter
Pitch Perfect: The Power of Storytelling in PR with Odette Barry
Want to make your brand unforgettable? In this episode, I'm chatting with headline-winning PR mentor Odette Barry. She specialises in elevating the visibility, reputation, and leads for change makers because she knows that every leader has a story to tell. We're diving into the role of storytelling that gets the media buzzing and builds deep customer loyalty. We discuss crafting compelling narratives, navigating sensitive topics with authenticity, and practical tips for getting your message heard. Whether you're a solopreneur or scaling a team, this is your guide to PR that serves a purpose.
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Instagram: @odetteandco
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/odette-barry/
email: odette@odetteandco.com.au
Special Offer: $50 voucher for all Odette & Co On Demand products.
This includes Hack Your Own PR, Sell Out Brand Product PR Masterclass, and The Go-to Expert Thought Leadership Masterclass. Your One and Only listeners use the code YO&O50 at the checkout.
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We have a special guest on the show today and her name is Odette Barry, and she is a headline winning PR mentor who designed and teaches the popular hack your own PR and authority brand programs, and she specializes in elevating the visibility, reputation and leads for change makers, because she knows that every leader has a story to tell, which is exactly what we dive into in this episode. So stick around, because I think you are going to enjoy it. I will note that there is a trigger warning on this episode. As we talk about infertility and pregnancy loss, you're listening to Brandon Butter, a straight talking, occasionally in your face. No BS.
Speaker 1:Branding podcast for modern marketers and business owners here for those who want to understand the influence and power of branding and how pairing associations, consumer behavior and design thinking can impact what people see, think and feel. I'm your host, tara Ladd, the sometimes funny, sometimes vulnerable and often unapologetically blunt founder and creative director of brand and design agency, your One and Only. Hi everyone. I have a very special guest with us here today and her name is Odette Barry. She's an absolute gun in PR and someone who I really value and respect, and I just want to swing the mic to her for a sec and let her introduce herself, because I think she'll probably do a better job of it. To be honest, go.
Speaker 2:Odette. Oh, thanks so much for having me. It's fun to come and have a little chin wag. It's been a while. Well, yeah, I'm a publicist, but I'm also a PR mentor, so I do a combination of teaching leaders, experts and entrepreneurs how to DIY their PR, which I've had the pleasure of sharing the journey with you, but I also I do some retainer work, working on behalf of, like, really impressive thought leaders that are trying to change the dial in their industry, whether that's anything from circular fashion brands through to people that are championing the conversation around neurodivergent workplaces. You know, I guess I, like I'm someone who just really loves storytelling, like you know, any format podcast, magazines, news and books but also I really think that, like the original format for creating change and creating a safer and more harmonious world for all of us, it starts with stories. So that's kind of what I'm all about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I really love that too. I think anything really starts with a story. Even visuals start with the story. I think once people kind of understand that any brand, narrative, brand, story obviously is what brings in, I guess, connection with an audience. But for everyone that doesn't know Odette, I really value what she does because she's quite passionate in how she delivers her message and she's very strong in what she stands for, and I think that that's kind of what drew me to Odette to begin with in the first place, and most of you would already know that I am very much very much in alignment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, very much, much down. That you know value driven um, doing things with a purpose instead of a profit kind of intention. So I think that, yeah, that's what, um, what I love most about Odette but she's just freaking great at what she does. If we're being completely honest, um, she's got a track record goes out the door. I've seen her deliver work not only for me but for a lot of other people as well, and she's an absolute champion for you. You know, if you, if you end up getting in um into one of her programs, um, she's, she doesn't just teach you, she then obviously finds things for you and says, hey, I think you'd be interested in this. So, yeah, I highly recommend going and checking out her stuff. But yeah, um, I don't.
Speaker 1:One of the things that I think, if we just jump straight into all the things, um, people are missing here at the moment are, well, I guess, is that storytelling aspect right. I think that the that the world has changed so drastically and it's well, there's a lot of, there's a lot of conversations going on at the moment isn't there. So it's like societal change and I guess you know brand changes and monetary, financial changes that there's just so much disconnect in, I think, what brands are as well, from the core into what they actually put out into the market. So I guess, from your perspective, what do you think the most common issue is at the moment from your side of things, and where do you think we can kind of go to try and, I guess, iron out any of the issues?
Speaker 2:For brands. Well, I think it's a pretty tough climate for a lot of businesses at the moment. So I think cash flow is a big one and I think also, when we're acting from a place of scarcity, that really impacts our ability to take risks, to be vulnerable and our ability to be really creative. I think that, like when you're got your blinkers on and you're like in that my god, I just have to figure this out mode, then our creativity and our willingness to be, I guess, like a little bit out of the box with our storytelling can be a little bit impacted. So that's probably something that I see happening at the moment.
Speaker 2:One other thing which is probably not new to right now is just the fact that a lot of people don't understand the importance of storytelling when it comes to PR. You know, if we aren't creative with our storytelling, then journalists are not going to pick up our stories. You know, if you're a product-based business and you don't have a powerful, compelling story to share, then you're going to hit the advertising buffer pretty quickly, with journalists saying wonderful, let me hand you over to my advertising manager story. Then, even if you do pay to play and use something like LinkBee, which is, or affiliate media, which is incredible and performing really well for a lot of brands at the moment. When you try and amplify that, if you don't have story in your advertorial, it's still not going to hit the same way as if as it would if you are willing to open up a little bit. So I think, like that storytelling piece is is quite misunderstood and something that people can actually really learn and get their heads around.
Speaker 1:I agree, I'm just sitting here nodding I know you guys can't see that, but yeah, I'm just nodding um, but what I agree most with that specifically is that storytelling aspect. But the vulnerability of what you just said then is so important because I think what we're seeing now and Odette and I were having this conversation prior to hitting record is that we're seeing people more value aligned to who they're choosing to invest their money into, be that large or small. And I think that when you have that storytelling aspect of pretty much why you exist, why you stand for what you're aligned with, that people are more in tuned to what they, I guess, want to fund and what they want to invest their money into. And if you're not providing that information, then I guess that you're missing this whole area of connection with an audience that you could otherwise be tapping into. And I guess it's not always about money, right, there's what I'm seeing specifically in the social media space. Right, it's just heavily consumption of just trashy content.
Speaker 1:I'm so over the rinse and repeat of the same type of shit. I've literally been for myself just trying to watch what everyone else is doing and trying to do the opposite, which can be really hard and, like you said, from a place of, you know, stress and trying to be creative and on all the time you do really find a struggle in being creative and more so you put pressure on yourself to how do I be different in a world that's so oversaturated with crap? And what I do see that is cutting through with everyone is actually that real, relatable content of they haven't over. Like you know, it's not overproduced, the sound is just someone sitting in their car, they've picked up their phone phone and they're having like a really raw and honest conversation and it's always that. I guess it's that process content or that you know the storytelling of how they got to where they were, or that story of struggle and you know some people don't have a story of struggle, but there's always some kind of motivator or driver as to why they exist and what they do. What they do. And that is the content that I'm really resonating with. I actually don't give a crap of what they sell, but if I really connect to them I'm like, oh, now, oh, is that what you sell? And then you kind of more interest, you kind of want to buy from them because of that connection anyway.
Speaker 1:So I guess, when you're looking at the types of stories that are really cutting through for people from your side of things, where do you think we're sitting at? And you obviously said this and we already know that this is like this has been happening for years, but now more than ever, the world isn't going to go back to what it was pre-covid. I think people are waiting for this kind of ironing out to be whatever the new type of normal is, but I think that we're just just so people. There's more and more people jumping online now and, you know, drowning out the message of what you know, you stand for and what you do. It's so easy to lose reach and visibility if you don't have that connection with an audience. So, coming back in a really long ADHD scenic kind of way, what do you think is the best type of approach in terms of creating a relevant story and narrative for a brand?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah. Well, I think, like this is, this is a really like um, pr versus human conversation, because I think we just always need to remember that we are humans, talking to humans first and foremost, and like when you come at things from that perspective, it kind of like it allows you to move away from like how can I strategically place?
Speaker 2:this story that's going to cut through, which invariably doesn't always cut through, because you're trying to be too clever and often when you're trying to be like super clever, like that, it's like you dull the humanness.
Speaker 2:So you know, like obviously there are some stories where someone started a business because they had breast cancer and they wanted to raise awareness for more people. You know other businesses, like Outland Denim, which you know are driven to change the stats around the number of women that are getting swept up in human trafficking. Like not all businesses have this really massive mission front and center, but a really good example of that, of a business that perhaps it wasn't numero uno of their like mission but something like Heaps Normal. Like that's a beer that was designed around a loose change in drinking behavior. You know people that were really clever brand designers, a group of friends that wanted to start something, but then the story has definitely been baked on top of that product, driving behavior change in Australia's drinking culture. So suddenly a product sits within a much bigger mission and becomes, you know, like that's one of the most highly mentioned Australian products in news media if you have a look at it and like who gives a crap?
Speaker 1:I was literally about to say that.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of these product-based businesses that are led by change are not our number one ambition in life or we're not born a raging activist, and so sometimes those stories do actually have to get baked back into a business. So there's like the mission of the business. That can be, you know, a storytelling opportunity. There are also your own personal stories that you can explore, so like what are the things that have happened in your life that you know have really shaped the way you see things or you know that have been quite formative for you? So they can be really nice storytelling opportunities.
Speaker 2:But one aspect that I think is really underutilized by a lot of leaders is like storytelling for education, so that real thought leadership piece, which that's like the low hanging fruit. You just need to use your brain and think about like the things that could be better in the industry or explore trends that you're seeing. Those advice pieces get so much credibility, authority building, quite instantaneously. You get to flex everything that you already know because you've already lived and learned all of this stuff either academically, professionally or in your lived experience, and that then becomes like a really great storytelling opportunity. So they're kind of like the three components that I see as being really effective ways for people to cut through, but they're also they're very achievable, like they're actually doable for brands. So it kind of depends where you are in that journey whether you're, you know, I guess, like probably one other thing I'll just say here is that sometimes I have these conversations with product-based businesses in particular.
Speaker 2:This is like not exclusive to product, it can also affect service-based businesses. But where a recent conversation was that a footwear brand you know was saying, well, it would be, really it would be almost greenwashing for me to take a position on sustainability, because I've never taken that position before. And I think like one thing that we need to really consider is that it is okay to change your position on things publicly. In fact it is very necessary and we actually have to do that. Like I certainly did not like come out of the womb. You know an intellectual, socially led publicist. You know I cut my stripes working in Westpac. Like it's definitely not like a, you know, learning pool of ethical leadership on social issues.
Speaker 2:But you know, like we come of age, uh, we grow, we learn, we become more wise and aware of the issues around us. So, you, if there's like an element where you're like, oh well, it wouldn't be authentic for me to like take this mission on social impact. Or, you know, for our business to like lead stories around, um, you know, domestic violence or whatever it might be. In fact, you need to find a natural way that makes sense and obviously you do need to stress, test it that you're not just like painting on values.
Speaker 2:But I think there is. If you're willing to have a public conversation and say, hey, we've realized we can do better, we're taking a stand on this now, then go and beat the drum.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that because I think, like it can be, people can feel quite impostery or they feel that it's a risk because they may say something and someone's going to call them out for it and probably they probably will. And do you know what? It's not bad if they do call you out on something, because they've obviously identified something that may be a hole, and it gives you an opportunity to actually come back and address the issue and say, hey, thanks for letting us know. We're actually going to take this into consideration. And that makes you look like 10 times better than everyone, because you've actually just acknowledged that you've done something wrong or you haven't thought of something human, totally.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Something human. It's like even um, I remember doing one of my uh first podcasts. On one of my, on my other podcast, Um, and someone called me up for some of the language that I was using and it wasn't bad. It was just, like you know, using male and female in a circumstance where I probably should have been using men and women, and I was like, oh, of course.
Speaker 2:And so then, obviously, you learn, you adapt and you change, and you and this is the thing- but I think that's something that a lot of people are afraid of is not knowing enough to take a position, in which case, upskill, read, listen, ask curious questions, be okay to show that you don't know enough, but also be okay with saying, hey, this is what I do. Know there are gaps, but this is a position I'm taking. Like I'm not saying, go out and, you know, say you're the industry leader on all things you know, if you're actually a tech expert.
Speaker 2:You know not where I'm at, but I do think that if you, you know like, if you want to explore baking a mission into your business, don't be afraid to do that Like, but like, do it authentically.
Speaker 1:Yes, I agree with that completely. I mean, it's not hard to even say like this is where we are now, and in five years time time we're hoping to achieve X, Y, Z, and it kind of gives you this goal that you can achieve and also people are keeping you accountable for that goal as well being in public accountability.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know, I'm a big fan of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's great too and there's so many things that we're seeing, with people doing this as well, like and we've watched it happen with um with, I guess, just natural progression into, into the change that's been built, into the way that we see, do and act as a society. Anyway, um, but you haven't. I've specifically noticed huge changes just in the last five years of how we even conduct ourselves as businesses and um I think that there are there's so many and we're not telling, I guess, um from brand my point of view from brand and um odette's point of view from story is that we don't want you to get up and wave your flag for every single, you know issue that's going on in the world. That's just too hard. But if there's something that you feel, um, I guess motivated, I guess are aligned to, or ethically aligned to, then to have the conversation for it. And, like Odette said, about educating and upskilling, I think that that's that's so important.
Speaker 1:We see people that just kind of fall to the, I guess, the default because it's just what they've always known. And how do we know that what we've always known is actually the right thing to do? I think, the only way that obviously we're both very passionate about this conversation, but the only way that we're going to know how to create real change is to open up that conversation. So maybe, even as a brand, if you don't have the means to talk about specific subjects, maybe throw it out to your audience to engage in conversation about you. You know what are some ways that you've done something in your life that you can, you know, provide to the? You know, bring to the table to start a conversation could be a really great way to you know. Open up that, that the discord with your audience. On.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or even just like get involved in your local community, like and hear what's happening in the community and you know, go to events, listen to experts and ask them. You know, like, how you can get involved?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's yeah, stuff like that's great. So hey, just a quick one. Have you ever felt like your marketing is just like throwing spaghetti at a wall and hoping that it sticks? Wouldn't you rather have the power to predict what works and what bombs, a deep connection with your audience, knowing exactly what makes them tick? Well, get ready to level up, because we're introducing the Brain Lab, your secret weapon to crafting insanely persuasive marketing. This is where behavioral science meets real world results. We're diving into the fascinating psychology behind why people choose the brands that they do. Think of the Brain Lab as your crash course in consumer psychology, audience analysis and the art of persuasion. If you want to join us to build a brand so damn irresistible your customers wouldn't think twice then grab your spot, because we're getting started by kicking off with a free masterclass in two weeks. So this is your chance to get a sneak peek at the power of the Brain Lab. We'll put the link in the show notes we look at.
Speaker 1:I think, when people think of media as well, that it can. Can I just say when you do actually get into the media with a news story, I think all these people feel that they're going to have all of these people just reply. That doesn't always happen. I know that it can happen, but, like a lot of people that are stopping themselves from, I guess, putting themselves out there, if not from, I guess, you know, an activist standpoint or you know, pushing out your true values, but more so like even pitching to media, which is something that Odette does really well. We'll come back to her recent article in a minute because it was phenomenal. But you can have people come back and comment and that's what you kind of want. I think it's to start the conversation and if a lot of people do start having conversations about it and disagreeing, that's a good thing, because it means that there is a difference in opinion and it's starting a discussion, which is literally the whole reason why you're writing in to begin with.
Speaker 1:Otherwise, you're just talking at an audience and I think yeah, I think the fear can come from people just coming back at you with all these hateful comments, but half the time, like you know, they don't know how to get in touch with you or they might comment a thing, and then you've you've almost been forgotten from someone's mind the minute that you post something. But Odette posted something really great the other week um about motherhood. I actually do you want to talk about it, odette, because I actually really resonated with that and I thought it was such a great um article and it did start I watched it on a few women's um, you know, uh, facebook groups of it did pop up and I was like, oh, oh good, she's causing a bit of a bit of traction here. So it was good, it was a really good conversation to have. Do you want to talk about that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure. Well, also to your point about like not always getting a lot of hateful comments, that one definitely generated a lot and. I've written on a few different topics over the years, and me commenting on my choice of sobriety and also me commenting on my choice of um early parenting have, um, I've never been so personally attacked in my time but it's also really interesting because they're like two really personal choices that, um, you know, we, we, all you know get really personally attached to.
Speaker 2:So I can totally understand why people would feel on the back foot. Or, you know, potentially people that only read headlines and not read articles can also feel like quite put off by the way things can get framed. But basically, if I zoom out from this, like, why am I commenting about parenting and writing about that? So last week I had oh, the week before last, sorry I had a piece published with the Sydney Morning Herald exploring, I guess, like questioning parenting and the systemic um issues that are impacting the way we parent and whether that's right. So that was kind of the premise of it. I've written for Sydney Morning Herald a few times over the years. I've contributed to the Australian Financial Review Mamma Mia, kidspot, body and Soul, you name it. I think it's important for me strategically as a publicist who is teaching people how to do their own PR, that I have some runs on the board.
Speaker 2:I think it's important for me not to be the plumber with the leaky tab, so that is something that I really try to proactively stay on the front foot with. If you look at any of the headlines that I have written, almost none of them talk about how I'm a publicist. And you should come and check out my business, because I don't actually think that that's necessarily a super valuable way for me to position my authority and something that I really hand on heart. Love is thought leadership and sharing your thoughts and big ideas with the world. So that's kind of like the context for it. But basically I pitched an opinion editorial to the deputy editor at Sydney Morning Herald, which was accepted, and I went through maybe five or six drafts of the position because it was something that I feel really really deeply about, but it's something that I know is very tender for a lot of people, and so I worked with Nicole Sergi, who is an incredible copywriter, to help me finesse and tame it, because I just really wanted to get it just right. And for anyone who might feel that imposter or, like you know, I'm not necessarily an amazing writer If you've got great ideas, ideas, but don't feel confident in writing, you can work with a copywriter who can help untangle your ideas and polish everything that you put together so that it sounds like much smarter than you might pay for.
Speaker 2:It was that I had my son when I was 22. That was, you know, something that I really, really wanted to happen. I really wanted to be a young parent. I got married when I was 21 and had texts nine months and five days after we got married. Do the calculations. After we got married, do the calculations. There's a great privilege, I know, to you know, being able to have a child, but you know, I also enjoyed a lot of privilege as a result of having him quite young, because my parents were quite young, my in-laws were quite young as well, and so, in terms of having a village, I was actually so incredibly well supported. I had several miscarriages before and after having my son, and going through that journey, I realized how I guess, how tenuous our ability to conceive is, and that it's not this guarantee that I had never once heard, prior to trying to conceive, anything about fertility.
Speaker 2:At school, sex ed was about, like you know, not getting a stopping it yeah, you know, and I think it's amazing the work that's been happening in the last few years with Chanel Contos around consent education being updated in the curriculum. But I think the next layer is also really talking about the realities of fertility, because I think so many of my friends and colleagues over the years have been met with that very surprising challenge of like absolute fuckery for want of a better description. Sorry, I shouldn't have edited that out. You can totally. No, you don't need to edit anything on this podcast. You know that is trying to conceive. You know like I've got family that have had like nine miscarriages. I've got like friends and family that have like endured years and years of IVF. So that's like one part of this conversation that I think really needs to change.
Speaker 2:But secondly, you know the challenge of like third wave feminism is that we were raised in this like environment of you can have it all. But I had a conversation with my mother-in-law like 12 months ago and she was like oh, I was actually talking to my nieces and I was like you know, I really want you to be aware of your fertile window and the realities of that, because you know you can have a career. The challenges of a career and motherhood are very, very real. And my mother-in-law interjected and she was like we didn't fight for you to have it all, we fought for you to have choices. Choice, and that is something that I think has been lost in the last couple of generations of us being marketed to unrelentingly in all of the things that we need to have and all of the milestones we need to achieve, and at no point was anyone marketing to us about. You know, your career choices also need to include motherhood.
Speaker 2:And so we get to this like window of 30 something and where you know, on this massive climbing adventure of like career success and ambition because that's what we have been groomed to be ambitious girls who are like raised into, like successful female leaders and then suddenly we need to address this like baby making conversation and we get spun into an absolute shit show chapter of life of you know, navigating identity and you know the absolute devastating, like heartbreak of not feeling like you're enough in society because the mother is simply not uh, valid or or revered as it should be.
Speaker 2:And then you're also trying to navigate child care, or you know j juggling schedules around, sleeping and trying to work at the same time, and I guess, like I am not a thought leader on all things motherhood and systemic change, but I have really strong views that I think that we really need to do something to create change here, because I think that too many people are really, really suffering through a chapter that could be really beautiful if we had a village around us and if we like, revered and loved the role of mother.
Speaker 1:I'm nodding with you because I agree with you wholeheartedly and anyone that I guess follows my personal. I am someone that will definitely talk about motherhood and societal change and you know I am on the polar that I loved that I was able to build my career and then leave. But I do preface that by saying my whole intention when I started my career was, if I am not where I want to be by the age of 25, I'm going to start my own business by the age of 30. So I had pre-programmed my brain into knowing that if it wasn't possible. And so what I did was then I studied and I learned and I upskilled and I freaking got so many certifications so that by the time I left there was literally nothing I could not know about. You know my industry, which is what I did. However, a lot of people don't have don't think like that either. So, yeah, by the time and I was also in a relationship with Ryan, you know, since I was like 18 years old. So I was steady in a relationship, you know we were pretty good and I had that again. I guess it's a privilege of having good family, good friends, good career choices and having, I guess, ari, my firstborn. I had him at 32. The business had been going well at that stage, so I was able to have the team kind of do that stuff, but yeah. And then he obviously went through his issues. But I don't think I would have been able to handle that at a younger age.
Speaker 1:But what I do love about the conversation is that it is what, exactly what your mother, your mother-in-law, said, and it is choice, and it's like why should we be thinking about, oh my gosh, I can only have children later on in life? Because the reason that was drummed into me was because you need to have a career and you're not going to have a career after you have children, and you know, fed with that. And there is I guess there is an element to that. You know, and this is the conversation that you were having which I saw, which I guess other people felt it was a personal attack, but it wasn't. It was that the system isn't set up for women in the workplace to be able to make that choice in a safe way. So they're having to choose one or the other, where I guess the other side don't have to do that at all. So I do really love that you brought that conversation to the table, even if some people got, I guess, got their noses out of joint a little bit.
Speaker 1:But I think that when people do, it's touched on something a little bit inside. Do you know what I mean? It's like kind of like, well, you know, in a perfect world, you know what I mean. It's like kind of like, well, you know, in a perfect world, you know, maybe I would have liked to have had children a little bit earlier, but would I have done what I needed to do? No, but I actually really love your story of how you did it, because I look at you now, your kids older and my kids are little and I'm like, damn it, odette, do you know what I mean? So it's kind of like it is, you know, know you kind of? I guess we look at it as having it all and the conversation is you just can't? You kind of can't? You got to choose what it is that you, that you want, and it's your life and it's your direction, and that's what exactly the conversation was.
Speaker 2:I think I would contest that, though I think that you know there is every opportunity to have it all in a lifetime, I think oh, totally yeah, you're right we kind of like sort of in this trap where we think we have to have it all within this certain time window of like age and that's not helped by 30 under 30 lists that, like champion great successes at very young ages. Like we actually have very finite years where we're fertile and can carry a baby. We're also, like, got very finite years when grandparents are, you know, readily available, and obviously it's a privilege if a grandparent is even available, alive, you know, or not working full time. Like I think like the main thing is the economic conundrum is that no one can afford to choose. They're actually, you know, very few people can afford to have a single income household. But like the utopia for me is like you live on a street where all your mates live, you all you know, you don't have to work.
Speaker 2:You can spend as many years out of the workforce your mates can help with like shared care, and you can, you know, go to the gym when you need to, you can look after the kids when you need to, and a lot of these things have actually existed in our like parents' lifetime, but they've totally shifted to these like daycare models that are like the reciprocity of like community care and the reciprocity of being part of community is something that I think has been like totally destroyed by capitalism and like my heart bleeds a little bit about it.
Speaker 1:I think you know, I was having this conversation with one of my friends not long ago and we were talking about because she was in her mid-30s and she's talking about where she should be. I'm like, who says you should be here? We've just been told that this is what the life is, because our parents had this. You know, our parents had the house and the family and the one mum stayed home and, like you just said, I said but it's just, it's actually not viable at the moment because the system isn't set up for in the world that we're living in right now. But I mean and this is going to get slightly political but if you look at countries like Scandinavian countries, I think that they've just got it right. They're obviously the happiest countries in the world and, yeah, they are a little bit more socialist. But you know, when we come down to what do you work for? Like, what do you work for?
Speaker 2:What do you live for, actually? What do you live for? What do you live for, like? I just think that, like, life is for living, it is not just for working.
Speaker 1:I think that we we've really butchered the human existence yeah, I think hopefully we can kind of reign that back in on track, but I think we're going to go through a little bit of a sticky puddle first before we kind of come out the other end of it. But it is it's these conversations that need to happen because, as you've seen you know this is a subject that I'm writing to but we've seen of the women movement coming through, you know, fourth wave feminism coming right up now. It's like we're seeing change happen and hopefully that is choice, right. That is that is not about. It's not about who has it best or who wants it. It's about you having the ability to live the life that you want to live in a society that aligns with what you can do. But it's just not set up that way at the moment.
Speaker 1:So, speaking out about those, I guess, shared experiences which is what you did and having those conversations about you know, actually this is my perspective on it and I actually don't really like where I'm at right now and just opening up those doors of, like you said before, vulnerability and opening that discussion, because I really think that that's where I find I'm much more like that on my personal stuff and like when I talk about neurodiversity a lot, cause it's.
Speaker 1:It is like you said, it's a shared thing. It's like a lived experience that I've had all my life and I do talk about that whole role of things that have happened to me and the connections that I've built with people. There's like eight I'm only at like 800 people there. I'm not actively trying to grow it or anything, but the conversations that I have with people there are so much more in depth and so much more real and, um, that has actually trickled through to the brand as well. So I love that you've done that, because it also brings a whole side of the brand right. Like now, people go oh I dare, that's such a great conversation, right. I'd love to know, actually, what was the response from that for you.
Speaker 2:Well, I think the interestingly, the headline that was put on it on the digital version was really contentious and not words that I would have chosen, and so the headline, I think, was something like having a child at 22 was the best career decision I could have made, which is like almost completely at odds with everything I said in the article. They also pulled a second sell line out in the promotion on Facebook. That was one of the lines that I did say, but without the context of everything. It just was lost. Without the context of everything, it just was lost. But it was something about, like, as I look at, like you know, my peers, managing nappies and gastro, I'm able to do Zoom meetings and travel when I want for business, and it just was On its own. I can appreciate that that would sound really vapid and a really bad argument for this weird headline around career. And so on Facebook for Sydney Morning Herald and the Age, where it was syndicated across the comments within an hour there were hundreds of them you know where's the dad, who's this idiot, you know, like a real personal attack, whereas anything that was um within the subscriber commentary on um, sydney Morning Herald or the Age, so because it's gated content as a paid article, um, anything in there.
Speaker 2:Obviously people had read the article so they were really considered and lovely and wonderful commentary there. Um, you know, and across my own LinkedIn and Instagram, you know, really incredible, um, you know, shared experiences that came out of the community. Um, you know, within the day I had, like several sales inquiries for PR. I had a meeting with a client, like a prospective client, that day, and the first thing he said was before you say anything, I just want you to know that I read your article. I shared it with my wife. It's the most you know intelligent read on this situation that we've struggled to articulate. And so, yeah, like it's not a PR 101 piece, but it's certainly demonstrating I've got the chops, that I'm saying, that I'm selling.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think it's also resonating with, I guess, like-minded audiences that you actually want to attract, which is probably the most important thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but more importantly, importantly, hopefully driving some more compassion in the system in and around um.
Speaker 1:You know how we parent and work yeah, and I think, yeah, that's a really important conversation to have. Okay, like so let's bring it back to, I guess, the audience wanting to pitch something that may be personal. How do you tie a story in that doesn't seem to be relevant to the business but is relevant to their personal life?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I would always. You know you are your business as the founder or leader or expert in it. So I think there's like one part where, strategically, you do need to consider what does my audience care about? And you know you might have to veto some topics that your audience really doesn't align with because they potentially could cause reputational harm. The other part is like thinking about those you know, ideas that you have that are industry-led. So are there um changes that you think should happen in the media landscape, or are there like trends that you have identified in the fashion landscape, like there's? There's lots of different ways that you can identify stories in your business, but the first and like most important piece is would my ideal customer care? And that's, like you know, just really knowing who your audience is and feeling really confident that you can meet them in a way that's interesting and not just be like a salesy story but instead something that's actually genuinely interesting yeah, I think, um, that stuff's more almost more important than the product or service that you offer.
Speaker 1:Um, I forgot what I was going to say then, but basically I think it's more important than the product or service, because I think a brand, first and foremost, isn't the product or service that you offer. It's all. It is all about the stories that you tell and the structure of it. Like, we think about big brands like Dove just released a beautiful ad and it's like you know, when you think of Dove, it's like you don't think of hand soaps and things like. I mean, obviously that's the alignment of that, but it is the stories that they tell and it's all about inner beauty and, um, and I think that people need to. You go and look at any huge, successful brand and half the time they barely have any of their product on the page or you know they're talking about what the feeling is to be part of that community and I guess what it is, what's the underlying associations that you're wanting to try and connect with that brand, and I think this is something that I was talking about last week. It's something that I'm right into is human behavior and motivations and drivers, and it's like you know, what is it that's driving behavior to purchase, and it is something that is reflective of an identity, of who someone is. And I guess, if you tick a box in an area, that is something that you want to be associated with, like, even if that's like integrity or, you know, um, compassion or empathy or whatever that may be. If there is something that is centralized around that pillar of the business, I think that it's. You probably could weave something that might be slightly off topic but still come into. I mean, you and I both didn't even think about this. You and I both know about Ari. So we were talking about I was talking to Odette about this because I was having, you know, existential crisis, about how I could weave this content into my narrative because it was such a huge element of my, of my story, but without looking like I was capitalizing off my child. So Ari had a transplant for those that may not have known at nine months. He's now four and a half and kicking goals.
Speaker 1:But, uh, at the time I went through a really freaking hard time and there was actually a time when I was on one of Odette's calls and we were sitting in the hospital. Do you remember we were talking to someone from the project yeah, I'm on the best sitting up to the bed but it was just such a um, it was a. It was a time when I was like what am I gonna do to do here? But, yeah, odette was really able to kind of pinpoint and I remember her questioning me what do you want to talk about? What is it that you want to talk about here?
Speaker 1:And now I'm in a really clear headspace with what I want to talk about and I have actually split out pillars for both my personal and my business brand, which are very different conversational pillars. But it was actually you that brought those initial conversations, because I remember you saying what do you want? And I was like I remember going, well, I don't know what do you mean. And I remember thinking like I was really frustrated, I was like what do you mean? And then I was like, well, she's got a point, because what I'm doing here it's convoluting the main message and in order to kind of and we both know that, in order to get, I guess, consistency and familiarity in the market of who you are and what you do, you really need to be strong in who you are and what you stand for.
Speaker 1:And there was a bit of dilution happening there because I was going through an identity shift and I think that any founder that is, I guess, in a period of growth and I think there are a lot of people in a period of growth that there is a big thing with identity and mindset that is aligned to business trajectory and in order for you to kind of potentially move the brand where you need it to be, there are some obstacles that sometimes you need to kind of counteract in your personal life in order to kind of move past those. And I think, regardless of who you are, we've all kind of experienced them in one way or another. Whatever that may be, scaled back, moved, grown, you know so.
Speaker 2:Well, I think there's also like is this the right time to have this conversation is a really good question to ask. I often tell people that when you're in it, that's not the time. It's when you've climbed the next mountain and you're looking back at that hard time. That's when it's a good time to talk about the hard time, because when you're in it, you're often a little bit too emotional, a little bit too triggered and you're not super good at being able to see the silver lining, which is what makes a story compelling and makes us want to engage with it.
Speaker 2:When it's a little bit too dark and gloomy, it can be hard for people to engage with it. So you need to be able to paint a picture of that hard time that is, you know, showing people the learnings, the growth, the transformation that happens. So sometimes, when you are in the thick of it on a really shitty chapter and maybe an identity shift, it's maybe less of the personal narrative pieces that you share, because maybe you're going through a shift but you still need to grow the business or be visible or whatever it is. It might be more that you're telling those industry insights and like advice pieces and that's a bit of a safer, less emotional terrain and that can be a little bit not to say like impersonal, but a bit more clinical and like take away from having to like strip your soul bare and put it on the cover of the Sydney Morning Herald.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree with that wholeheartedly. That's actually what I did do. So, um, I love there was a time when, um, so I kind of waffle in the idea of I think it's still important to paint the process of what you're going through, because I think a lot of people that are dealing with shit like to know that other people are dealing with shit as well. Um, however, they don't need to know. You know the five layers depth, you know they just tell them where you're at and kind of what's going on and what you're doing, and then kind of leave it at that if that's a conversation that you want to have. But yeah, I ended up switching that.
Speaker 1:But what did happen off the back of that that I found, was that it became a bit safe, and so it was. It was coming back into what you said before, coming back into that vulnerability when I was in a better headspace to kind of bring back that. You know that narrative of what you exactly just said. But then, true to that, also, the humor came back, which was a huge element of what was, or has always been, a pillar. But when you're not going through a great time, it's really hard to be a funny person you know. So it's kind of um it, you just have to tread the water, um and do what you've always known and, like you said, yeah, keep it safe. But yeah, I think if we were to talk to anyone now that is is looking at, I guess, having a conversation with media um, how do you, how do they start and and what, what advice would you give them to do that?
Speaker 2:that's such a broad question sorry I would say is sign up to hack your opr. Yeah, 100%, that's what we're here for. Yeah, yeah, no, look, um. Uh also listen to my podcast, hack your opr, because I interview journalists and editors and ask them exactly what to pitch to them so you can have a really fast track, figure out what's what in the media and make your life a lot easier. But yeah, first things first know who your audience is and you know, be really clear on that. Also, make sure you've got a beautiful brand, beautiful website, beautiful like exterior, so that when new traffic comes and checks you out, exterior, so that when new traffic comes and checks you out, you're going to be able to convert them. So cart before, don't put the cart before horse. Which one is it?
Speaker 2:horse goes first I know exactly what you're talking about, but I've lost it as well, but go and uh, you know, make sure that you've got a really iconic, like visual identity that like really confidently represents you, that your shelves are stocked with your product, that you know people can book into your online calendar. If you're a service-based business, make it all squeaky, clean and seamless. But also, I'd really recommend that you have some kind of email capture so that you can collect that traffic of email capture, so that you can collect that traffic. So you would want to have like some kind of relatable email download on your website to the subject matter that you might be pitching around. Or you've also set up some kind of meta campaign so that you are retargeting any new visitors to your website so that you can capture them in the days, weeks to follow.
Speaker 2:But that's kind of like the foundational piece. Then it's really understanding what media your audience consumes. So they might be heavy podcast listeners, they might be, you know, like daytime TV viewers, they might be digital media consumers, whatever it is. You need to understand what makes sense for them. And then, of course, like identify what stories you have under the hood in your business, like both professional, personally, you know, is there a really great narrative? And then play matchmaker. What stories work for what outlets?
Speaker 1:I love that and, um, there was a piece of advice that Odette gave me which I found like absolutely it's so easy was to set up google alerts. When you said to set up google alerts just on the industry or the things that you want to talk about, um, yeah, also like your competitors names as well, because that's a really good way to watch where they are getting media coverage.
Speaker 2:Um, but the biggest, like the fundamental non-negotiable when it comes to PR, is that you have to read the news, so you need to be across what conversations are happening in the publications you want to be in.
Speaker 2:So if you want to be in women's agenda, read at least 10 articles on women's agenda before you consider anything. If you want to be in Primer or Marie Claire like, you have to go and read their articles so that you understand their flavor, the sort of subject matter they like covering, who the journalists are like, what sort of like experts are being featured there, because that's all going to really influence how you pitch, what stories you share with them and also just give you a lot of confidence in the invariable follow-up which is part of the process. Because if you have really researched what your story idea is and you know exactly where it fits in their pages, you're going to have that extra little layer of confidence when you're having to keep chasing to make a story happen. Yeah, and.
Speaker 1:I think, off the back of Odette's program I found that there were little things that even I was missing, ironically, in my own brand narrative that, um, because you can become very blind to your own things because you are so emotionally attached. So it's really good to have someone, um, like Odette did with the copywriter, to go over some of the things that you're willing to have conversations about and just address where there could be some gaps and some places for you to kind of jump into or some things that you may need to bridge before you kind of pitch to the media. But yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:Odette, sell us some stuff. What have you got going on at the moment?
Speaker 2:Well, I've got all the things. The Hack your PR um library is um evergreen now so you can access that anytime. Um that library is, you know, four hours of theory that you can like go at your own pace. I also run the meet the media program. So that is live pitching calls where you get a 10 minute um zoom date with me and a journalist or editor every week for four weeks um to pitch your story. So we have that with sunrise forbes, sydney morning herald and marie claire um and that is mildly terrifying for a lot of people I'm laughing because I'm just going fucking hell I.
Speaker 1:I was scared the shit out of me, but yeah, that's great.
Speaker 2:But you know, like you do the work you want to, like get those introductions. So that is also run three times a year. And then I also run the authority brand, which is it's really kind of like the hack your own PR next level. So we still have the components of PR and navigating the media landscape, but I've also added in modules around securing a TED talk, which I've worked in partnership with a TED talk expert, and also writing and getting published by a major publisher. So we have Alexandra Payne from Murdoch come in and help with, like writing a pitch for a book, how to build the profile around your book and get it in front of a major publisher. And then we also have a module around LinkedIn, because we actually know that LinkedIn is the glue for all of this.
Speaker 2:It's your connections with media, it's your connections with publishers, it's your connections with event programmers and it's also your place to amplify with core decision makers, so that is taken over Twitter. I think they have different places. I think Twitter still has a massive role, particularly when it comes to, like, disseminating um academic research and news issues. Um, I don't think anything moves faster than Twitter. Um, I think LinkedIn is. It sits in a different place to, I think, where Twitter ever sat.
Speaker 1:It's evolving, isn't it? It's like kind of like a mix of all these different things.
Speaker 2:Well, if you look at LinkedIn versus, say, instagram, as a business B2B platform like Instagram has, you know, just over a billion users. Linkedin has just over a billion users. Linkedin has just over a billion users. On Instagram, you know, it might be like 30% of the users are your key decision maker, whereas on LinkedIn pretty much everyone's your decision maker. But then you look at Instagram, it's like 69% of users are content creators on a weekly basis, whereas on LinkedIn, 1% of users are content creators on a day on a weekly basis. So, in terms of like organic, opportunity and networking with key decision makers.
Speaker 2:It is fundamentally fucking awesome.
Speaker 1:I've actually. It's interesting that you say that, because I like I it's it's an issue, you know, it's like all the things. But when I do post on there I do get leads like really easily from random places as well. And I think what's interesting about LinkedIn is that you actually don't have to even post some things.
Speaker 2:Sometimes it's just your opinion, that you may give on someone else's comment, um, or someone else's post and then they come from that social network in its truest form, like what facebook and instagram used to be many moons ago. Um, you know that amplification of you know, comments and connection with strangers is like yeah potent.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's all the things, isn't it? Now, I highly recommend Odette's stuff and definitely give a listen to her podcast. And I mean, even if what I really love about your podcast, odette, is that you say who you're talking to, so when you do know who you need to talk to, you can just pull out those, I guess those episodes of the ones that you do really want to focus on, and you'll get all the gold. Guys, you'll get all the gold. But I mean, this has been a great conversation. Thanks so much for having it with me. Is there anything? Oh wait, where can they find you?
Speaker 2:Well, I'm on Instagram at Odette and Co. O-d-e-t-t-e. On Instagram at Odette and Co. O-d-e-t-t-e. Also find me on LinkedIn, of course, odette Barry, or on the web at odettencocomau.
Speaker 1:Amazing. Thanks so much, Odette, and I will chat to you soon.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Did you like that episode? I hope so, because if you did, why don't you head over to whatever platform you listen on and rate and review? It's much appreciated and helps others know what we're about. If you want to follow us, you can find us at yourwannanonly underscore au on Instagram.
